Insider's Guide to Energy
The Energy Industry is uniquely evolving as traders are under increasing pressure to manage costs, cash, limits, and risks. The Insider’s Guide to Energy Podcast addresses current and emerging challenges business executives face daily through stories shared from peers and industry experts while covering topics such as innovation, disruptive technologies, and emerging trends.
Insider's Guide to Energy
203 - Future-Proofing Renewable Energy: Insights on Solar, Storage, and the Evolving Grid with Hitachi's Debrup Das
In this episode of the Insider’s Guide to Energy, host Chris Sass sits down with Debrup Das, Head of North American Renewables for Hitachi Energy, to explore the future of renewable energy and grid innovation. The conversation dives into how utility-scale solar plants, energy storage systems, and grid modernization can address the growing demand for electricity as society transitions to electrification. Debrup highlights the economic advantages of solar energy, the rise of hybrid energy hubs, and the role of new technologies in ensuring a reliable, sustainable power supply.
Debrup sheds light on how advancements like grid-forming technologies and energy storage solutions are reshaping how renewables integrate with the grid. He discusses the importance of balancing energy production with market economics, touching on innovative approaches that enable solar developers to adapt to changing regulations and market demands. The conversation also delves into the global supply chain’s impact on renewables and how Hitachi Energy leverages its worldwide footprint to deliver cutting-edge solutions.
Listeners will gain valuable insights into the collaborative efforts needed between developers, utilities, regulatory bodies, and technology providers to achieve a sustainable energy future. With a mix of optimism and expertise, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the challenges and opportunities shaping the renewable energy landscape, making it a must-listen for energy professionals and enthusiasts alike.
We were pleased to host: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debrup-das/
Visit our website: https://insidersguidetoenergy.com/
00:00:00 Debrup Das
How do we future proof the revenues of utility scale solar plants given all the changes that will come over the next 20 years in market site as well as in the regulatory side?
00:00:11 Chris Sass
Your trusted source for information on the energy transition.
00:00:15 Chris Sass
This is the Insider's Guide to Energy podcast.
00:00:23 Chris Sass
Welcome to another edition of the Insider's Guide to Energy.
00:00:26 Chris Sass
I'm your host Chris Sass and with me today is Debrup Das, DOS head of North American Renewables for Hitachi.
00:00:33 Chris Sass
Dave, welcome to the podcast.
00:00:35 Debrup Das
Thank you.
00:00:36 Debrup Das
Excited to be here.
00:00:37 Debrup Das
For having me.
00:00:38 Chris Sass
I am excited this show has been in the making for quite some time. I think we spoke a long time ago about getting you on the show and you know Hitachi is doing quite a bit in renewables and it's.
00:00:48 Chris Sass
Space. Why don't we start with a?
00:00:51 Chris Sass
Bit about.
00:00:52 Chris Sass
What you're working on?
00:00:54 Debrup Das
Sure. Maybe I can talk a couple of sentences on Hitachi Energy itself, because I am sure.
00:00:59 Chris Sass
Absolutely.
00:00:59
Most of you are.
00:01:00 Debrup Das
Know about us, but maybe for those who doesn't, we are originally equipment manufacturer or OEM. So we make electrical equipments that goes into the grid.
00:01:12 Debrup Das
Whether it's on the utility side, whether it's on the developer side and so.
00:01:16 Debrup Das
Forth and we are global company in almost 90 plus countries with almost 50,000 employees worldwide more than 6000 in us bring the technology, the electrical piece that really helps the grid modernize and we know that the society is moving to its electrification.
00:01:36 Debrup Das
We help.
00:01:37 Debrup Das
We're very proud to be helping in the transition.
00:01:40 Chris Sass
All.
00:01:40 Chris Sass
So that you're very ambitious holes. You're a large.
00:01:43 Chris Sass
Anyone in the energy, probably most audience have heard of you and know where you place.
00:01:49 Chris Sass
In our pre conversation we talked a bit about renewables and and where they fit into this whole backbone. In this electrification scheme and and it'd be interesting to see, you know, your personal take as a subject matter expert of how renewables are going to play out here now.
00:02:03 Chris Sass
'S talking about em. Everybody wants em.
00:02:05 Chris Sass
Where do they fit?
00:02:07 Debrup Das
Absolutely yes. So of course the renewable goes into the generation piece of it, but before that, maybe let's take a step back on the demand side because that's what driving the whole conversation, right.
00:02:21 Debrup Das
If we look at the demand, what's the demand of the electric electricity side?
00:02:25 Debrup Das
Whole society wants to go towards electrification, which.
00:02:28 Debrup Das
That the transportation sector, for instance, is good going towards electrification and now of course the AI and machine learning piece is adding to that.
00:02:37 Debrup Das
So this is driving a growth in electricity that is unprecedented in the past 50 plus years.
00:02:44 Debrup Das
Right. And to support that now we need to meet it with our generation side, which has renewables and of course the other pieces of the puzzle.
00:02:53 Debrup Das
Now.
00:02:53 Debrup Das
It gets.
00:02:54 Debrup Das
Here is if you look at the.
00:02:58 Debrup Das
Economic space of it the renewables today is the cheapest way and the fastest way to meet this unsatiable demand of the grid.
00:03:07 Debrup Das
And that's when we come in to provide the technology in terms of connecting the through the grid and making it.
00:03:13 Debrup Das
More green.
00:03:15 Chris Sass
All.
00:03:15 Chris Sass
So you're claiming you're claiming here that renewables are the best economic choice to get energy in and now help me understand this.
00:03:23 Chris Sass
Want to put a huge data center?
00:03:25 Chris Sass
I want to have AI capability, so I need thousands and thousands of servers perhaps.
00:03:31 Chris Sass
And I need cooling and all the pieces that go with it.
00:03:33 Chris Sass
So does this mean that I need to plot my data center down somewhere in the sunbelt and it's only going to work during daylight hours?
00:03:40 Debrup Das
No, no.
00:03:41 Debrup Das
We have come a long way to make sure that we have future proof on.
00:03:47 Debrup Das
We have made our grid and our technology modern enough so that we only don't use it when the sun shines or the wind blows, right.
00:03:55 Debrup Das
So that's the piece we bring in in terms of making the grid stable and so on.
00:03:59 Debrup Das
So yes, you're.
00:04:01 Debrup Das
When it's data center, we are talking of huge loads. Now hundreds of megawatts.
00:04:06 Debrup Das
In fact.
00:04:07 Debrup Das
In many cases, so of course now we have to make, if we look at the economic piece of.
00:04:13 Debrup Das
It the the renewables, let's say if you take solar in particular, right in the LCOE analysis of Lazar, it puts it as the cheapest form of electricity over the life cycle of it even cheaper than some other forms that we have known for the various.
00:04:31 Debrup Das
10s of decades.
00:04:32 Debrup Das
So when we connect when we are thinking of surfing this energy, of course there's a piece of.
00:04:40 Debrup Das
Gene for form of swollen wind that will help us meet this demand. But there'll be also other pieces of the puzzle. For example, battery industry, storage or long duration energy storage, which many people are still researching on.
00:04:52 Debrup Das
So there will be also other pieces of the puzzle which will ensure that the grid is stable, not just when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.
00:05:01 Debrup Das
But also during the night hours during the hurricane and so.
00:05:05 Debrup Das
And so forth.
00:05:06 Debrup Das
So all this together makes us makes us enables us to.
00:05:10 Debrup Das
Meet the demand of the data center.
00:05:13 Debrup Das
Now the location, whether it's in the Sun Belt or whether it's close to a coast it there is a lot of factors that goes into evaluating of that.
00:05:21 Debrup Das
So it's.
00:05:22 Debrup Das
I wish it was a straightforward answer for you, but it's not such a one line answer because it has to look at various aspects, not just of the energy.
00:05:32 Debrup Das
But also, as you said, it needs schooling.
00:05:34 Debrup Das
What are other infrastructure?
00:05:37 Debrup Das
Uh connection to the people who will be using it and so on. So, but from the energy perspective, we certainly have the technology today to make sure that the renewables help in this transition to the AI, which is very, very power hungry.
00:05:53 Chris Sass
So, you know, we're talking about the technology. We also recently have seen interest in nuclear growth. And if you look.
00:06:00 Chris Sass
These data centers and the kind of demand.
00:06:02 Chris Sass
I hear you saying solar is.
00:06:04 Chris Sass
Why are we not leaning on nuclear? What?
00:06:08 Chris Sass
The the.
00:06:08 Chris Sass
We got these modular reactors that are coming.
00:06:11 Chris Sass
All kinds of interesting technology.
00:06:13 Chris Sass
Are you still saying that solar is the way to go or is it a mix and match or what?
00:06:17 Chris Sass
The answer you're seeing.
00:06:18 Debrup Das
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a mix and match of all of the above. I think it's it's not a question of one or the other.
00:06:25 Debrup Das
But having said that, I'm not a specialist in nucleoside, but from at the high level what I see and hear, it has still perhaps 10 plus years to come to the market.
00:06:35 Debrup Das
There may be some barriers in terms of technology in terms of safety and so on. That needs to be overcome for us to be comfortable with it.
00:06:45 Debrup Das
And go into full scale.
00:06:46 Debrup Das
So what we are saying right now is renewables such as solar and wind.
00:06:52 Debrup Das
Are ready today and they can go up to date.
00:06:56 Debrup Das
The demand of of the whether it's the transport industry, whether it's the machine learning.
00:07:02 Debrup Das
And so on and so forth.
00:07:04 Chris Sass
And in your previous answer you described these hybrid energy plants where you talked about solar storage.
00:07:11 Chris Sass
What's happening?
00:07:12 Chris Sass
What's the trend in?
00:07:13 Chris Sass
I mean, you implied that storage is.
00:07:15 Chris Sass
You said there's still research being done on long duration storage, but help me understand how it's working today and where we are.
00:07:22 Debrup Das
Absolutely.
00:07:24 Debrup Das
This is an interesting thing that we are seeing trend that we see in the US we are seeing a lot of storage being Co located.
00:07:33 Debrup Das
Solar so often when we see a solar.
00:07:37 Debrup Das
Utility scale solar plant it will have 1-2 or four hours of energy storage in that plant at the same location.
00:07:46 Debrup Das
Last year, Woodmark estimated that about 50% of such.
00:07:51 Debrup Das
Storage solar plants had storage.
00:07:54 Debrup Das
Now just this quarter, it's up to like 66%.
00:07:57 Debrup Das
So it's definitely an upward trajectory.
00:08:00 Debrup Das
And here the interesting fact.
00:08:02 Debrup Das
Is once the developer puts a storage in the solar plant there is we see additional value streams additional.
00:08:11 Debrup Das
Not just on the financial side revenue stream, but also an additional value from the technology piece which can help bring lots of ancillary services for instance to the grid which can make the grid stable.
00:08:24 Debrup Das
And so.
00:08:26 Chris Sass
And then what percentage of solar projects take in input storage with them?
00:08:31 Chris Sass
That high percent or low percent today?
00:08:35 Debrup Das
It's pretty high in the US so last quarter it was as high as 66% of solar. If you look at MW wise, the amount of megawatts or gigawatts we put it in solar, almost 66% of them had a storage.
00:08:51 Debrup Das
To it. So, which means that we are more and more going towards this hybrid.
00:08:57 Debrup Das
There is a slightly different term. They use energy hubs which is often used for Co located and it can be Co located.
00:09:05 Debrup Das
It can be Co located with storage.
00:09:08 Debrup Das
Co located with hydrogen for instance, and so on.
00:09:10 Debrup Das
So using an upward trend towards having this energy hubs or hybrid facilities if you will.
00:09:17 Chris Sass
Are we also seeing storage used for peak shaving or for other opportunities where it might be to a more conventional energy plant where you know they they can take capacity and put it into storage?
00:09:28 Chris Sass
That something that's taking place.
00:09:29 Chris Sass
Scale OK.
00:09:31 Debrup Das
So hybrid plants, it's a very interesting concept that we are think getting more and more popular.
00:09:38 Debrup Das
So what we are seeing is today in lot of markets, for example, California and Texas, there's a lot of congestion or curtailment.
00:09:45 Debrup Das
What happens is if the utility upstream has.
00:09:49 Debrup Das
Overloaded transmission line.
00:09:50 Debrup Das
Then, as a solar plant, you cannot put more solar energy, even when.
00:09:55 Debrup Das
Sun shines.
00:09:56 Debrup Das
In fact, in the if you look at the kaiso market, the KIRTLEMINT has gone more than 7X in the last five years in terms of energy that is scarce.
00:10:05 Debrup Das
So what we are seeing here is the batteries. They give the capability of the solar to the storage plants, solar plants to store the energy for a few hours.
00:10:16 Debrup Das
So when the congestion in the grid clears up, they can then now feed the power to the grid.
00:10:21 Debrup Das
That way we are not in wasting the solar energy that is being generated.
00:10:26 Chris Sass
We're not curtailing the energy in.
00:10:28 Chris Sass
We don't want to, you know, just just, you know, get rid of the energy.
00:10:31 Chris Sass
We're saving it.
00:10:32 Chris Sass
But our folks using this for economic advantage is this changing the way our market and our immediate demand for power is being.
00:10:40 Chris Sass
So are there market dynamics where I can take that stored energy and do the economics work, then sell it back when prices are high?
00:10:47 Chris Sass
Is that happening?
00:10:47 Debrup Das
Message. That's a great question and that is not happening as much, but I can tell you this way. Like if we when we come into the picture, we certainly help our customers, the developers to future proof the design.
00:11:00 Debrup Das
Yeah. So if I look at a solar plant and let's keep hybrid aside for a moment, if I look at a solar plant.
00:11:08 Debrup Das
It's a very high CapEx project. So the all the capital goes in almost in year 1, right?
00:11:14 Debrup Das
And then we have to recoup the revenue over the next 20 years.
00:11:18 Debrup Das
So we really want to make sure that this project is.
00:11:22 Debrup Das
The risk in terms of finance, which we'll talk about in terms of the market, the utility grid.
00:11:32 Debrup Das
Uh, changes that comes along with it.
00:11:33 Debrup Das
And the third is the regulation piece.
00:11:35 Debrup Das
Yeah. And let's go 1 by 1 into it.
00:11:38 Debrup Das
So the finance piece, right?
00:11:39 Debrup Das
So as I was mentioning that the it's a high CapEx project and we have to get the revenue over the next 20 years, right, so.
00:11:48 Debrup Das
Of course, the market prices in the energy market will change and so on and so forth.
00:11:53 Debrup Das
The price signals in wholesale market PPA market, the answer market will change.
00:11:58 Debrup Das
How do we deal risk it?
00:12:00 Debrup Das
Not many people are taking advantage, for instance, of participating in different markets.
00:12:05 Debrup Das
It's more PPA, but that's where we come in to educate our customers that, hey you, if you built in the flexibility when you're designing the systems today.
00:12:16 Debrup Das
Then you could.
00:12:17 Debrup Das
Participate in the market if and when that becomes a more attractive proposition.
00:12:22 Chris Sass
So what's the gate of?
00:12:23 Chris Sass
Why? Why? Why are we not seeing people being more market participant and motivated by short term, you know 15 minutes or short windows of opportunity?
00:12:32 Chris Sass
What's getting them today?
00:12:35 Debrup Das
It's the little.
00:12:36 Debrup Das
I mean, remember, a lot of these solar plants that are installed today have been designed maybe five years back. So a lot of times they might not have thought of the possibility and in many markets in certain markets.
00:12:50 Debrup Das
These price signals may not be as.
00:12:52 Debrup Das
The PPA prices that they have is the main way that they make money.
00:12:57 Debrup Das
So here, that's where we come in again to make sure that we learn from our trajectory and make sure that.
00:13:05 Debrup Das
What we're designing today is really making full advantage of the flexibility that we can incorporate in the design.
00:13:12 Debrup Das
And hence if things changes, if market signals become really attractive, let's say in the ancillary market five years down the line, then the developer has the capability to move things around in a certain way and hence take advantage of it.
00:13:27 Chris Sass
From the infrastructure point of, I mean, we talked about the grid like it's one thing, but there's it's not this one thing.
00:13:34 Chris Sass
There's a lot of regulation, there's a lot of rules connecting.
00:13:37 Chris Sass
How is that developing?
00:13:38 Chris Sass
Are we?
00:13:39 Chris Sass
I you know, if I'm I'm a solar developer and let's say there's a number of people trying to place capital and develop as quickly as they can, you know, and I'm in a region.
00:13:48 Chris Sass
How's the regulation supporting who gets to go in?
00:13:51 Chris Sass
The grid remain.
00:13:53 Chris Sass
I mean, there's a lot of elements there, so help me understand.
00:13:56 Chris Sass
That picture, you know, how do I take my development?
00:13:59 Chris Sass
Get it approved and keep the grid stable.
00:14:01 Debrup Das
Absolutely, that's I think.
00:14:04 Debrup Das
If the technology aspect of it, so there is something called the grid code which in layman's terms we can call it that as the electrical code of conduct.
00:14:15 Debrup Das
So if utility is the school or the university, so if you want to get admission to that school or the university, you have to abide by the.
00:14:24 Debrup Das
Code of conduct.
00:14:26 Debrup Das
And hence when a flower plant is connecting to the grid, it has to make sure that it understands all its responsibilities in terms of, hey, what happens if there's a disturbance in the grid?
00:14:38 Debrup Das
Do I support the grid?
00:14:40 Debrup Das
What happens if there's an?
00:14:42 Debrup Das
What happens if there's an internal issue, equipment failure and so on? So.
00:14:48 Debrup Das
These are very critical pieces that has to be designed up front so that they abide by the grid code.
00:14:55 Debrup Das
Now if you look at grid code itself, it has evolved in the last 10 to 15 years.
00:15:00 Debrup Das
Significantly, of course, if you think about 15 years, there's not much solar that was connected to the grid and hence the requirements to for the solar plants were very rudimentary.
00:15:12 Debrup Das
Disconnected there's.
00:15:13 Debrup Das
Don't worry about the grid.
00:15:14 Debrup Das
Take care of yourself.
00:15:16 Debrup Das
Now it's bigger plate in the grid, so now it has to have a bigger responsibility.
00:15:21 Debrup Das
So when there's a requirement, it should support reactive power to the grid, it should make sure that the grid is stable and so on.
00:15:29 Debrup Das
What we can project is this requirements will include even stronger as solar planes, a bigger role in the electricity grid, right?
00:15:37 Debrup Das
So how do we make sure that again, design today and implementing today?
00:15:43 Debrup Das
The utility scale solar plants are able to abide by the grid codes, which may be changing in the next 5-10 twenty years. So for sure in some markets, for example, grid forming inverters might come into the picture. And so on.
00:15:59 Chris Sass
I guess you know if I think at the grid the grid that that we grew up with, you think of a base load, you think of the market demand and then spinning up generation based on a bidding process of whatever the price is to spin up whatever res.
00:16:11 Chris Sass
It is now solar.
00:16:14 Chris Sass
I mean, that's very different, isn't?
00:16:15 Chris Sass
And and how that goes to, you know, let's let's create this.
00:16:17 Chris Sass
Let's loop them together into a virtual power plant, so to speak.
00:16:21 Chris Sass
Right.
00:16:22 Chris Sass
How does that?
00:16:22 Chris Sass
I mean, if you know if load it's 5:00 PM or 6:00 PM and people are coming home turning on their stoves, turning on their ovens or whatever, or you know, if you have a steel Miller smelter in your region and they need power at certain times.
00:16:34 Chris Sass
How does that different architecture A in performance wise than the grid of base loads and then the market kind of is spinning up new new generation?
00:16:44 Debrup Das
There are two angles to it, and we need all of these tools to make sure it works. One piece of it is in the generation itself.
00:16:53 Debrup Das
What you do when the solar goes down?
00:16:56 Debrup Das
And the other pieces in the grid infrastructure itself.
00:17:00 Debrup Das
So to answer the first to look at the first box, if you look at solar and wind for example, they're very complimentary.
00:17:08 Debrup Das
The wind starts blowing stronger during the night, right?
00:17:12 Debrup Das
So in some sense, if you look at the various forms of renewable energy, they complement each other very well.
00:17:19 Debrup Das
And storage really helps a lot.
00:17:22 Debrup Das
Yeah. So right now most storage are 1-2 or four.
00:17:27 Debrup Das
Those duration, but as I was mentioning, there's actively research and demonstration going on for long duration storage.
00:17:35 Debrup Das
So at certain point, I'm sure we will see maybe 10 plus hour, maybe even 100 plus hours. Storage that becomes becomes.
00:17:42 Debrup Das
That will help more make things even. So that's the generation piece of it that helps smooth things out.
00:17:49 Debrup Das
There's also the the transmission and distribution piece of it, where increasingly we have to make the grid more agile, more adaptive, so that we can make sure that we can connect.
00:18:01 Debrup Das
The various parts where the solar arrays, which is often a little bit far away from where the demand.
00:18:06 Debrup Das
For example.
00:18:07 Debrup Das
Right. And make sure that we can connect it in ways so that there is the grid is still stable, there's no congestion and so on.
00:18:15 Debrup Das
So we I think we'll go.
00:18:16 Debrup Das
We will see already we're saying, for example, the grid being more.
00:18:22 Debrup Das
Agile having more controls in the forms of, for example, high voltage DC HVCC.
00:18:28 Debrup Das
Having support systems in the form of stat Coms and so on and so forth, so that the grid which sits in the middle between the generation and the load can now actively control that.
00:18:39 Debrup Das
During the day, I will bring the power from the solar to the load. During the night I'll bring the power from the wind to the load, which geographically.
00:18:45 Debrup Das
Reach these two a different regions.
00:18:48 Chris Sass
Now, as you're describing that, my mind started thinking through kind of the the simpler as I like to say, a ******* question that I'm not never afraid to ask.
00:18:55
Yeah.
00:18:56 Chris Sass
This podcast.
00:18:58 Chris Sass
In your opening, you talked about the demand increase for electrification in, in. In this podcast we've talked about electrification of pretty much everything. That's kind of the move, right?
00:19:08 Chris Sass
And what I see are some of the changes coming. Things like if EVs were prevalent, you know, take all the fleets and all the EV demand and then you take heat pumps and you start changing cause heating is a large use of energy and you electrify all that.
00:19:23 Chris Sass
Does that change the dynamic of the grid that we know because peak demand is during the daytime? Is is today and at night you might charge a car. But as we get more and more EVs?
00:19:33 Chris Sass
Everybody can't go to that cheap 3:00 AM charging.
00:19:36 Chris Sass
Because if everyone's doing it, the demand is now high at.
00:19:39 Chris Sass
And if my everyone's house is heated by electric demand, which would have curtailed during the evening hours, might go up. So have we seen a shift, and are we expecting to see a shift in power?
00:19:50 Chris Sass
It's not just the peak, you know.
00:19:52 Chris Sass
It's a duck curve.
00:19:53 Chris Sass
Is.
00:19:53 Chris Sass
Is it different than what we expect?
00:19:57 Debrup Das
Oh yeah. I mean, I wish I had the future looking globe, but yes, it will evolve differently.
00:20:05 Debrup Das
For sure, I think.
00:20:08 Debrup Das
How it might evolve in different markets, its still a big unknown.
00:20:12 Debrup Das
We will have a lot of different types of demand curves through the day and so on as you mentioned like we are used to thinking in a base load fashion that hey, we have the base load and then in the night the requirement goes up and the day.
00:20:28 Debrup Das
Requirement.
00:20:29 Debrup Das
Down when everybody leaves for.
00:20:31 Debrup Das
And we have seen in California already the tough curve is really inversion of what we expected in the last 100 years, right?
00:20:41 Debrup Das
Once we go towards more electrification of EVs is a big piece of it.
00:20:45 Debrup Das
It will change the demand during the night.
00:20:49 Debrup Das
I think what we cannot also discount is.
00:20:52 Debrup Das
The personal EVs is just one fraction of the transport industry, right?
00:20:57 Debrup Das
So we see more and more electrification of the big units like the trucks, the school buses, they mining trucks, which are significant amount of power.
00:21:08 Debrup Das
Per unit, right?
00:21:09 Debrup Das
So as we go electrify those pieces of the transportation industry as well, I think we will totally see a different.
00:21:20 Debrup Das
Curve a triple different weekly curve.
00:21:23 Debrup Das
How that might look like, I don't know.
00:21:26 Debrup Das
I wish I had the.
00:21:28 Chris Sass
But I guess.
00:21:29 Chris Sass
It brings to my mind is the importance of hardware and software rules and enforcement of how one could build infrastructure.
00:21:37 Chris Sass
That could evolve with that. From where you sit, how? How is the technology?
00:21:43 Chris Sass
Be evolving to make that possible right 'cause it's a dynamic.
00:21:46 Chris Sass
I mean, it's almost a 180 shift if the vision that I heard you say has taken place and you know if I'm building infrastructure for the next period of times, you know, if I'm building a new development today.
00:21:58 Chris Sass
Help me understand how I comply with the code that you talked about today.
00:22:03 Chris Sass
But.
00:22:04 Chris Sass
Have the policy enforcement to be stable five years from today. If there's a major transfer patient or 10 years from today.
00:22:11 Debrup Das
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:12 Debrup Das
So I think the two components to it, 1 is probably the vision aspect that hey, how do we see the evolve evolution of the grid at the interaction between the players, right?
00:22:23 Debrup Das
Go into that first and then the second piece is.
00:22:24
Replay.
00:22:26 Debrup Das
If on a take an example of a solar plant and how do you make sure that in that vision you have the right tool sets to play with, right?
00:22:37 Debrup Das
So yeah. So let's take the vision aspect first, I think.
00:22:42 Debrup Das
What we will see is this high interaction right today as users, you and me, we just switch on the microwave, the dishwasher when we need and we and for most markets we are not charged by the hour for most markets we are just charge.
00:22:58 Debrup Das
This many kilo Watt hours.
00:23:00 Debrup Das
Is your demand and hence multiply factor and so on.
00:23:05 Debrup Das
But I think it is already becoming more interactive in some sense that as users we have the responsibility to understand or an adapt when the energy is more abundant and accordingly.
00:23:19 Debrup Das
Our view.
00:23:21 Debrup Das
So of course.
00:23:24 Debrup Das
It trickles down less to the personal side, but when we look at CNI operations and so on, it's clear that hate is users have to be more adaptive that hey, does all my power needs to be on all all the time.
00:23:41 Debrup Das
This is some amount of my load that is flexible and hence I would try to have that when the prices are low.
00:23:49 Debrup Das
So that way it's a change in behavior as a society, not just on the personal side. The industrial side and commercial side.
00:23:57 Debrup Das
How can as a society?
00:24:00 Debrup Das
We evolve that hey, energy is precious.
00:24:02 Debrup Das
We should not waste.
00:24:03 Debrup Das
We should use when it is more available.
00:24:07 Debrup Das
And hence, as a society, we become more interactive. That hey right now the sun is shining brighter. So some of my off peak non critical things can be done automatedly now of course nobody is going to.
00:24:21 Debrup Das
Switch on switch of 24 two thousand things in a day so they will automate some of these and most of these, right.
00:24:28 Debrup Das
There's a piece of automation in digital that comes into the picture which will help automate it.
00:24:33 Debrup Das
So that the entire.
00:24:36 Debrup Das
Societies in some sort of a harmony, so.
00:24:40 Debrup Das
That makes sense.
00:24:41 Chris Sass
It does make sense and I got.
00:24:42 Chris Sass
So we kind of covered the technology and we got just a little bit of time left.
00:24:47 Chris Sass
Be curious about the supply chain.
00:24:49
Run.
00:24:50 Chris Sass
One of the things that also comes up with the renewables and people talk about is do we have the supply chain to build everything out that we need, right? Is there enough of that type of metal we need from the right countries in the right places or can?
00:25:00 Chris Sass
Source all these bits and pieces.
00:25:02 Chris Sass
So what are you seeing taking place as a supply chain today?
00:25:05 Debrup Das
Yeah, this is again a very critical piece of question today because what happened globally is all the countries are moving towards electrification as we speak.
00:25:18 Debrup Das
So that put a really big strain on the supply chain, especially during Covic, and we are still.
00:25:24 Debrup Das
Have improved a lot from there.
00:25:27 Debrup Das
Yes, we will need a lot of more Transformers, a lot of more Breakers and a lot of more electrical equipment in general.
00:25:34 Debrup Das
And I think we have the right resources.
00:25:37 Debrup Das
To source it in the right way.
00:25:39 Debrup Das
Uh, now we of course cannot.
00:25:44 Debrup Das
For any global company like us, it's a very inefficient to say, hey, we should all produce it from.
00:25:51 Debrup Das
Particular geography.
00:25:52 Debrup Das
So we have to be cognizant of the fact that, hey, what makes the most sense?
00:25:57 Debrup Das
Which components should be manufactured where and how do we source the strategies?
00:26:02 Debrup Das
Keeping in mind the.
00:26:05 Debrup Das
Aspects of national security and so on.
00:26:07 Debrup Das
So we are a global.
00:26:10 Debrup Das
We have footprint, a huge footprint in us, but as well as in other parts of the globe. So we make sure that we abide by what the local requirements are in terms of supply chain to source it.
00:26:22 Chris Sass
Now it actually you repeatedly said it's a global company. You have a huge number of.
00:26:27 Chris Sass
I mean, I worked with Hitachi people when I lived in Europe. I've worked with them, working here in the US.
00:26:32 Chris Sass
Where does that provide competitive advantage? Having a footprint across multiple countries and you know, renewable energy isn't an American thing.
00:26:40 Chris Sass
Not a uniquely European or Asian thing.
00:26:43 Chris Sass
What's competitive advantage a company like yours gets from being in a global footprint?
00:26:47 Debrup Das
Yeah. So I think the number one advantage we have is people.
00:26:52 Debrup Das
Yeah. So the sheer diversity of the people, the different ways of thinking that different intelligence that bring in to the table, that is the sheer number one advantage by far now apart from that of course we take advantage of.
00:27:07 Debrup Das
The.
00:27:08 Debrup Das
Capabilities that we have in the various local sectors, right? So in certain geographies, a certain piece of component or a certain piece of material may be more abundantly available and certain know how.
00:27:22 Debrup Das
Be more.
00:27:23 Debrup Das
Prevalent. So we use those to our advantage to make sure that we have the center of competency.
00:27:28 Debrup Das
Interview with so we make sure that here we so we have different center of competences, for example for offshore wind, this one for solar technologies we have center of competences and so on.
00:27:41 Debrup Das
So we make sure that we take the best or that we learn globally, but also take advantage of the local infrastructure that helps a particular.
00:27:50 Debrup Das
Technology grew and grew really and it's from there.
00:27:52 Chris Sass
So let's extrapolate that out to your personal experience. Your North American lead.
00:27:56 Chris Sass
So how does having a footprint in Europe help you with decisions, let's say in North America, or having a footprint elsewhere?
00:28:02 Chris Sass
Has that helped impact your renewable strategy for North America?
00:28:07 Debrup Das
So let's take.
00:28:11 Debrup Das
Supplying right.
00:28:12 Debrup Das
So when we had the supply chain crunch, not just as a company, but as an industry.
00:28:19 Debrup Das
During COVID, we had to make sure that we are looking at not just the factories in us but also factories in Europe and South America and so on to source these needs because those needs were very urgent of our customers, right.
00:28:35 Debrup Das
So having that flexibility that hey, we are not constrained by just one.
00:28:41 Debrup Das
Uh toolkit in the toolbox is makes a lot of sense because then in in some other parts of the world, the demand was probably not as high.
00:28:50 Debrup Das
So then we could help the take the help of the our European counterparts or our South American counterparts to say, hey, we have a shortage of this equipment here.
00:29:01 Debrup Das
Why don't you help us and?
00:29:03 Debrup Das
That way, serve the customer better now.
00:29:06 Chris Sass
But I guess what that also leads to, if I look at the liberal power markets in Europe and how they operate and then North American power markets were very different structurally.
00:29:18 Chris Sass
To.
00:29:19
What?
00:29:20 Chris Sass
What's the differences in the?
00:29:22 Chris Sass
So if we're going to a renewable strategy and you know I'm in the EU or I'm sitting here in North America, are there significant differences in strategy and does that make implementation significantly different?
00:29:34 Debrup Das
Absolutely. So for example, the European market, there's a lot of top down or vertically integrated.
00:29:40 Debrup Das
Players Tsos, for instance, would take care of a lot of these renewables.
00:29:45 Debrup Das
So on the other hand, in us, most of these solar plants, for example, are brought into the market by what's known as ibps. Independent power producers, also called developers, right?
00:29:57 Debrup Das
So those are more private players.
00:30:00 Debrup Das
So the there is a significant difference between how the the vertically owned Tsos work versus the IPPS work and hence we have to make sure that we understand the business cases of the IPPS and developers and accordingly.
00:30:16 Debrup Das
Generate solutions that make sense.
00:30:19 Debrup Das
And this really comes down to customer intimacy. So understanding the customers pain points and how to make sure that our solutions for example, we talked about making it future proof how our solutions can make their.
00:30:35 Debrup Das
Elevate their pain.
00:30:37 Chris Sass
So if if you were to deliver a call to action or ask North American energy leaders, a lot of audience, what would you be encouraging them to step up?
00:30:47
Do.
00:30:48 Debrup Das
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that first of all, we are very proud of what we have done in the last few years.
00:30:56 Debrup Das
That's really a step in the right direction and a lot of ways. What we want to see more is really having this cross collaboration among all the stakeholders.
00:31:06 Debrup Das
And this grows cuts across let's say OEMs like us the develop.
00:31:10 Debrup Das
Was the utilities, the regulatory bodies and the government?
00:31:14 Debrup Das
So because the key thing here is for the market is to give stability. If the market is stable, it definitely becomes more attractive for this private entities like developers to invest more.
00:31:28 Debrup Das
And hence make sure that the grid and the generation the load of all aspects of it grow to the need that serves the society.
00:31:38 Debrup Das
So I think here we need to.
00:31:40 Debrup Das
We are already working pretty close as a stakeholders, but we need we can do more as working closely so that our plans align with each other. So we have visibility into the planning of what's coming in terms of not just.
00:31:54 Debrup Das
Grid enhancements, for example, but also in terms of the pipelines.
00:32:00 Debrup Das
So on and so forth.
00:32:02 Chris Sass
Do you see that?
00:32:05 Chris Sass
I mean, obviously there's.
00:32:08 Chris Sass
Environmental impact is this being driven by economics for most of the developers point of view, or are there still quite a bit of folks making the decision based on environment and near term?
00:32:21 Chris Sass
You see that being.
00:32:23 Chris Sass
A change. Or do you see this being the the path to the future? So is it the economics that these folks are going to say, hey, we're going to put renewables in because of the most cost effective way to get a stable grid?
00:32:36 Chris Sass
We're doing it because we don't want to see, you know, one point some odd degrees where the climate change.
00:32:41 Chris Sass
In the near future.
00:32:42 Chris Sass
Which way on the continuum does that fall?
00:32:46 Debrup Das
Yeah, I think.
00:32:49 Debrup Das
Its as you said its a continuum and I think it's a mix of both. But I think there's a strong.
00:32:56 Debrup Das
The economics is much stronger today. For most projects. It's not all the only reason the developers are investing money is because they have a positive.
00:33:08 Debrup Das
The rate of return, right?
00:33:09 Debrup Das
So today I'm not aware of any developers who is investing money in a renewable project saying that, hey, I know I won't make money out of it.
00:33:19 Debrup Das
Not.
00:33:19 Debrup Das
But aren't there?
00:33:20 Chris Sass
Funds that are dedicated to going into renewable.
00:33:23 Chris Sass
Mean there's earmarked funds?
00:33:25 Debrup Das
Yeah, yes. But they are making the reason they are putting that funds together is yes, there's a social responsibility towards towards the environment, but also the funds are there to make positive rate of returns, right, so.
00:33:25 Chris Sass
For renewals.
00:33:42 Debrup Das
I think if you look back 10 plus years.
00:33:46 Debrup Das
The economics was not as strong.
00:33:48 Debrup Das
So then people, those were that's why the the traction was lower. So there was lower amount of money flowing into it and the reason it is much higher today is because the economics makes a lot of sense and putting people really believe in the economics and they have.
00:34:05 Debrup Das
Seen the positive effects of it?
00:34:07 Debrup Das
And hence they are attracted to.
00:34:09 Chris Sass
The market other than just a straight business problem, is there a technology innovation or something that either has recently happened or on the cusp that you see will be transformative?
00:34:21 Chris Sass
For the deployment and the rated deployment of renewables.
00:34:24 Debrup Das
Sure. I think one of the things that.
00:34:27 Debrup Das
There are many.
00:34:28 Debrup Das
So we are a technology company, so we get to look under the hood and talk to our research colleagues.
00:34:34 Debrup Das
Was myself a researcher for a dozen of years. So we.
00:34:39 Debrup Das
Look at a lot of things that are really, truly exciting. But one thing I think.
00:34:44 Debrup Das
That is coming, and it's, as you said, the cusp is this crisp grid forming technology that is really exciting.
00:34:51 Debrup Das
That really what it is is it allows the renewable plants and so on to act as.
00:34:59 Debrup Das
A synchronous generator, if you will, so making it look electrically speaking as a synchronous generator as a big generator and hence providing the stability to the grid.
00:35:13 Debrup Das
Especially during disturbances and faults and so on.
00:35:17 Debrup Das
So that's something that is really near term. We see as a game changer because that will allow the grid operators to bring in a lot of renewables more.
00:35:28 Debrup Das
Confidently.
00:35:30 Chris Sass
Well, I want to thank you.
00:35:31 Chris Sass
Has been an enlightening.
00:35:33 Chris Sass
You're very optimistic about the future. Where we're headed and the change coming, and I don't want to thank you for sharing where the audience and insiders guide energy today. It's been a joy.
00:35:42 Debrup Das
Thank you.
00:35:43 Debrup Das
It has been a pleasure and hopefully do it again soon.
00:35:47 Chris Sass
If you're an audience member and you enjoyed this content, please give it a.
00:35:51 Chris Sass
Please don't forget to comment and forward it to your friends and we'll see you again next time on the insider's guide to energy. Bye for now.