Insider's Guide to Energy
The Energy Industry is uniquely evolving as traders are under increasing pressure to manage costs, cash, limits, and risks. The Insider’s Guide to Energy Podcast addresses current and emerging challenges business executives face daily through stories shared from peers and industry experts while covering topics such as innovation, disruptive technologies, and emerging trends.
Insider's Guide to Energy
199 - Navigating the Future of Clean Energy: Market Trends, Policies, and Global Investments with Mona Dajani
Explore the latest insights in clean energy investment and policy with industry leader Mona Dajani. In this engaging podcast episode, Mona joins host Chris Sass to discuss pivotal topics in renewable energy, from market growth and the impact of global interest rate changes to ExxonMobil’s recent lithium discovery and its potential to reshape the electric vehicle landscape. Gain a deep understanding of the driving forces behind renewable energy deals and what the future holds for the clean energy market.
Learn how the upcoming U.S. elections and international policy shifts in regions like the EU and Asia could affect energy transition projects in North America. Mona shares her expertise on the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), clean hydrogen, and the long-term growth of the EV sector, examining how these policies are driving investment despite economic uncertainties. Discover why multinational stakeholders are keeping a close eye on tariffs, supply chains, and market security as they make pivotal decisions in renewable investments.
As nuclear and hydrogen technologies gain momentum, Mona addresses the global race for energy dominance, the resurgence of nuclear as a clean power source, and the critical role of hydrogen in the energy transition. This episode offers essential insights for anyone looking to stay ahead in the evolving world of sustainable energy and to understand the broader implications of policy, technology, and global competition on renewable markets.
We were pleased to host: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monadajani/
Visit our website: https://insidersguidetoenergy.com/
Transcript
00:00:00 Mona Dajani
I think the market's going to keep on growing, Chris. I don't think that it's it's not going to stop growing. I do. I will say that I think it's a big deal that it's ExxonMobil. They should be commended.
00:00:16 Chris Sass
Your trusted source for information on the energy transition. This sadistic insiders guide to energy podcast.
00:00:28 Chris Sass
Welcome to another edition of the Insiders Guide to Energy. I'm your host Chris Sass and today with me is Mona Dejani. Mona, welcome to the podcast.
00:00:36 Mona Dajani
Thank you so much, Chris. I'm really excited to be here with you today.
00:00:40 Chris Sass
I am excited to have here last time you and I spoke, we were at RE plus. It was a crowded room, a lot of background and there was so much we wanted to cover. We couldn't do it in that live stream. So to have you on a full episode, this is gonna be fun.
00:00:52 Mona Dajani
Yeah, this is really fun that sound.
00:00:54 Chris Sass
For our audience, before I start, I introduced you by name but not title. Fill in the audience of who you are professionally, what's your title and who.
00:00:54 Mona Dajani
Looks.
00:01:02 Chris Sass
Do you work with?
00:01:03 Mona Dajani
Great. Thank you, Chris. So I'm Mona Dajani and I'm the global Co chair at Baker Botts for energy infrastructure and hydrogen. For over 25 years, all I've done is put together deals in the clean energy space.
00:01:23 Chris Sass
And I have to say, when we're walking around a plus, it was a little bit like walking to the rock star. Everybody seemed to know you and come over and say hi, that was a lot of fun. So I I think you are well connected in this industry from what I can tell from being at a conference and and and spending time with you. But the one thing you were pretty passionate about, you work in the deal space is the economy. We we talked a bit about it in our live stream, but we really didn't go into it.
00:01:46 Chris Sass
And maybe it makes sense to start out with what's trending, what's happening in the economy, and how is it impacting the clean energy investment space.
00:01:54 Mona Dajani
Well, the clean energy investment space is very sensitive to interest rates because the projects cost so much is so capital intensive.
00:02:06 Mona Dajani
So whenever there's hikes in the interest rates, I pay attention if there's, if there's on the converse, where there's cuts.
00:02:20 Mona Dajani
I pay attention to that too as well. I write about it pretty extensively too, because I believe that globally we're all connected. So even though the United States, we're a superpower, many different countries do look to us, we're influenced by other countries.
00:02:40 Mona Dajani
Other countries look at us like recently the EU has been much more aggressive about making cuts and I have to say it was with a former partner of mine, Christine Lagarde.
00:02:55 Mona Dajani
And she's been much more aggressive with the the interest rate cuts and we're we had a big we had a Jumbo 1 back in September and now we, you know, we were trending another 50 and now it's kind of gone down a little like 25 bips.
00:03:14 Mona Dajani
Not really 50, not 100 total. What we were expecting.
00:03:19 Mona Dajani
Because of some of the data, you know that was that has been released, the jobs are poored and how we're doing on consumer sentiment and everything and inflation. So it's very important when you're to be a successful developer or sponsor.
00:03:39 Mona Dajani
To really pay attention to the global economics. What's that?
00:03:43 Chris Sass
Now, is it unusual?
00:03:46 Chris Sass
You talked about the EU and I was going to ask you about that cause it it seemed unusual for them to be more aggressive right out the gate with the interest rate change than than following U.S. policy is, is this something scaring investors or is this something making people uncomfortable because it's not the normal progress or path forward?
00:04:04 Mona Dajani
Well, I think that I think that also it it is it's a little, it's spooking some investors.
00:04:14 Mona Dajani
I think that frankly next week is going to be the US elections. That's also spooking investors. And I think both of these data points together, the unknown has really created some uncertainty. And when we're doing deals, whether we are representing.
00:04:33 Mona Dajani
Developers or lenders or investors or sovereign wealth funds. We really want certainty as much as.
00:04:42 Mona Dajani
And right now it's a little bit of a free throw because we came out of the gate, the United States, we had this jumbo cut and we were expecting that to continue and it may. But so far the data points that I've been reading and seeing, you know.
00:05:01 Mona Dajani
It's kind of tempered our expectations recently, but we keep abreast, I keep abreast of all the data points that are released. I do an analysis and that really helps with determining whether.
00:05:16 Mona Dajani
Try to get as much certainty as we can, but a very fact specific and time specific to.
00:05:22 Chris Sass
And then I guess how is that changing the sentiment of what's going on, right? So I I get that so many of these deals are really a function of cost of capital. But at the same time, policy dictates we want clean energy.
00:05:37 Chris Sass
Depending on where you are on the elections, you may have slightly different views there, but there's already a lot of law that's already in place that's dictating some clean energy policy. So whether whatever happens, there's there's inertia there.
00:05:50 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:05:50 Chris Sass
How is this really rippling through to the greater energy market in North America?
00:05:57 Mona Dajani
Well, let's just say specifically on clean energy, that's what I'll focus on. I think the way that it's rippled through is.
00:06:07 Mona Dajani
A lot of the sponsors are going forward, OK? They're just saying, OK, the cost of capital is going to be more. We're going to make less, our IR is going.
00:06:15 Mona Dajani
To be lower.
00:06:17 Mona Dajani
But we there's a lot of big projects and there's a like very huge utility scale projects. There's also a lot of.
00:06:28 Mona Dajani
Money on the sideline, a lot of capital, a lot of powder. We call it a lot of powder on the sidelines too as well. That's just waiting for a little more certainty on both the economy and where we're going to be with respect to our new administration or not.
00:06:49 Mona Dajani
And and my views on that as well with respect to how that's going to affect clean energy. But I do believe that all of these put together are.
00:07:00 Mona Dajani
You know, creating a little angst like you've pointed out, they're creating a little angst and as a result it's causing some inertia.
00:07:10 Mona Dajani
But there's still a lot of projects that are going forward. There's still a lot of joint ventures, you know, by the time I see a deal that comes to my desk, it's very well thought out. You know that it's that's going to go forward unless there's something really, really horrendously.
00:07:32 Chris Sass
But I mean.
00:07:33 Chris Sass
Some of these strategies are long term. If you want to remain competitive in the world, this is where China has done so well is that they get the kind of the volume, the the whole machines going to onesie. Twosie deals don't really drop the economics down for a lot of the energy that people want. We really kind of want the volume to get those colonies of scale, I understand.
00:07:43 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:07:52 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:07:54 Chris Sass
And and imagine that you see that more as objects in the rearview mirror as opposed to on the front end. By the time they're coming to you, the deals are being structured and it's lot of diligence done and a lot has happened before it gets to.
00:08:04
There.
00:08:05 Mona Dajani
OK.
00:08:05 Chris Sass
So are you still seeing a healthy way before we see maybe a not healthy wave you know because you're there's a little bit of a lag from the time that you're engaged?
00:08:15 Mona Dajani
Not really. I mean it's for me by the time I get involved and we're helping with the structuring too as well.
00:08:24 Mona Dajani
It's going forward and I see a lot. I'm very bullish. I'm seeing so many deals done and all different technologies for clean energy. So I'm seeing it's still going forward.
00:08:38 Mona Dajani
I think that that we could have a lot more with foreign investors, do more business here in the United States. I think we could see a lot more deals coming forward as well. But the industry remains very bullish. You've seen I'm sure like so many.
00:08:58 Mona Dajani
Big institutional IPS and big developer sponsors is what they do for a living. Just renewable energy have made really very ambitious.
00:09:12 Mona Dajani
This, you know, statements about how many gigawatts that they want to have in the in the year of just clean energy.
00:09:18 Mona Dajani
So those are still going forward. I I feel like it's going to be more the floodgates will open more once there's a little more certainty with respect to the economy with respect to who our next administration is going to be.
00:09:38 Mona Dajani
And you brought up China. You know, that's a big you absolutely hit the nail on the head with China. They are definitely, you know, there's two different views that both candidates are taking with China and, you know, and I think that they.
00:09:58 Mona Dajani
They have been the leaders in solar and in some other technologies of electrolyzers etc. And I think that there's a lot of more deals that could happen once we have more certainty with both the economy and.
00:10:16 Mona Dajani
The administration, the new administration.
00:10:17 Chris Sass
So some more deals.
00:10:20 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:10:20 Chris Sass
Focused straight for the bottom line or more for energy security.
00:10:24 Mona Dajani
Uh, it's both. It's both. I think that the majority of the sponsors.
00:10:32 Mona Dajani
The investors, the the, the, the companies that I deal with the Lenders Day in and day out.
00:10:42 Mona Dajani
By and all they're doing it because they're trying to save the planet, but at the same time, you have to make money doing it.
00:10:50 Chris Sass
Yeah, I'd like my pension fund to pay off as well, right? I want to be able to retire one day.
00:10:52 Mona Dajani
Right, right. Exactly. So I do believe it's a combination. I think that there's it's, it's really one thing that the reason I got into this space 25 years ago was because.
00:11:08 Mona Dajani
There's there's. So there's it's mission driven, OK, it's those, it's and the people behind these companies really believe in it. Like me. We're really passionate about saving the planet, saving the earth, lower decarbonizing, lower the.
00:11:25 Chris Sass
But, but you don't need to be to make business sense, right? So I I think the misnomer is the only good people in energy are the people that are passionate about it. I think that's very important. But I think there's also people in energy that see there's there's sound business print.
00:11:38 Chris Sass
Goals and that renewables do have sound business. Maybe not every business model or some that I might, yeah, question more than others.
00:11:44 Mona Dajani
Yes, yes.
00:11:45 Chris Sass
But I I don't think it's a mutual exclusive that you have to have this. You know, hey, I want to decarbonize by 20302050. You know, you don't have all these deadlines cause I have met a number of people along the way that just said, hey, look, there's a good economic return here, the policies.
00:11:59 Chris Sass
Lined up.
00:12:00 Chris Sass
That you know that the things are in place. I've got the infrastructure or the technology to go build a sound business in this environment.
00:12:00
Yes.
00:12:05 Mona Dajani
Or right? I think it's both, Chris. I think it's both because they're the the majority of the people that I deal with in the space are very mission driven. But at the same time they're realistic and they know that there's also money to be made, you know, money to be made and also.
00:12:25 Mona Dajani
It's saving the planet. It's creating energy security too as well many different reasons.
00:12:31 Mona Dajani
But it's not one where you see people going in and out just to make a quick buck. So it it is a little more mission driven than perhaps some of the other industries that are maybe tangential to clean energy and maybe technology.
00:12:48 Chris Sass
So what policies? So by the time most people listen to this, we'll be either right at the election or right after the election. This is.
00:12:54 Chris Sass
Coming out about.
00:12:54 Mona Dajani
OK.
00:12:55 Chris Sass
The time to the the genie will be out of the bottle. What policies are not on the table to change what? What? What's going to survive through this angst that folks have about?
00:12:56
Yeah.
00:12:58 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:13:06 Chris Sass
And possible administration change and frankly, both administrations are a new administration, so that there's there's administration change coming no matter what. But what policies could we bank on or what are, what are things that we have confidence are gonna live through whoever's in charge?
00:13:10 Mona Dajani
Right, right.
00:13:14 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:13:21 Mona Dajani
Well, let me just go back and and say that I don't think. I think regardless of who the new administration is, I don't think we're going to see a lot of major changes to the IRA for several reasons. Number one, it was enacted in law.
00:13:40 Mona Dajani
So it's very hard to have an executive order to get rid of it. You actually have to have the house.
00:13:45 Mona Dajani
And the Senate vote.
00:13:47 Mona Dajani
So I don't think it's, you know, it's very difficult for that to.
00:13:51 Mona Dajani
Go away.
00:13:53 Mona Dajani
#2A lot of the clean energy projects sit in Republican states that have created jobs and have caused a lot of their economy to really boom because of.
00:14:07 Mona Dajani
These projects in their states, in fact.
00:14:10 Mona Dajani
You know, there were about 18 congressmen that went to House Speaker Johnson and actually lobbied him to make sure that they were heard, that they did not want anything to happen to the IRA. If there's, you know, regardless of the.
00:14:31 Mona Dajani
New administration or not, and you also have big energy majors and I'm happy to say I represent a lot of them.
00:14:42 Mona Dajani
That also have been publicly lobbying to House Speaker Johnson and to the public that they don't want to see the IRA to be scrapped or to have really significant changes.
00:14:59 Mona Dajani
So I don't see some. I see tweaks happening if they're, you know, some of the items that have been run.
00:15:08 Mona Dajani
3rd that may be off the table if there's a new administration. Our surprisingly, ironically EV the EV credit. Just last week. I know we're dating ourselves a little bit, but there was final guidance issued for the manufacturing credit.
00:15:29 Mona Dajani
That was also something that could have been on the table, but now that we have final guidance, I don't think that that's.
00:15:36 Mona Dajani
We're going to see that on the chopping block.
00:15:40 Mona Dajani
That really, I mean, there's some other some tweaks you know with some of the sunset rules for solar wind storage. I really don't see anything major.
00:15:54 Chris Sass
Well, what about for like the homeowner? Like the Rewire America stuff like where where you want incentives to put your heat pump in or what whatever your incentive might be that you find cause there there's a lot of incentives available at the moment, if you know where to look. If I want to put solar in or do something there, there's there's funding to get.
00:16:07 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:16:09 Mona Dajani
Yes.
00:16:11 Chris Sass
Do you see that getting more difficult? Do you think the legislation protects that as well?
00:16:15 Mona Dajani
I think it it depends. I hate to say that, but it really depends on the specific incentive and credit.
00:16:25 Mona Dajani
I think that it is more likely that the smaller homeowner, especially if there's a change of administration, may be affected by these, but also you have state policies too that go with this. So it's not all federal. So you don't have to put.
00:16:45 Mona Dajani
All of it on to the.
00:16:48 Mona Dajani
You know, to the federal government, there's many different out, many different programs and incentives out there by states, by counties, you know, just at a more local level. So I just think that, you know, the average homeowner needs to look and see.
00:17:08 Mona Dajani
They can. They usually will get some things in the mail from, you know, from utilities that will explain some of the stuff. So just keep an eye.
00:17:17
Oh.
00:17:18 Chris Sass
You got to be careful though, because there's a lot of fraudulent activity that you'll see that you get free this or that and they're not really programs, they're more.
00:17:25 Mona Dajani
Yeah, I've I've. I've bought. Believe it or not, I've had some clients say to me, of all the people I just thought, can you just tell me if this is true? This is fake or not, you know? And I look at it immediately. I'm like, no, that's totally fake. So don't.
00:17:26 Chris Sass
Marketing as well.
00:17:42 Chris Sass
Yeah, I'd I'd recommend your state state websites, because there's there's number of solar installers and things like that where I get all kinds of stuff on my.
00:17:44
Yeah.
00:17:49 Chris Sass
Blocks that doesn't necessarily line up the state I live in, but you you mentioned interesting topic you mentioned EV's. Now EV's take a lot of things like lithium, and there's a lot of things in the supply chain to make ebbs, and there there seems to be less of excitement about EBS across the general population in the US right now.
00:17:53 Mona Dajani
Right, right.
00:17:56
Yeah.
00:18:10 Mona Dajani
Yes.
00:18:10 Chris Sass
But.
00:18:12 Chris Sass
Let's look at that. How is that likely to unfold and what's happening in?
00:18:15 Chris Sass
The V space.
00:18:17 Mona Dajani
Well, So what I think right now with the EV space and I'm a very big believer on EV's.
00:18:26 Mona Dajani
If you look at other countries, especially like Norway, which has over 8182% conversion.
00:18:35 Mona Dajani
Where there is some more.
00:18:39 Mona Dajani
Government incentives.
00:18:41 Mona Dajani
You know where there's a big difference between.
00:18:45 Mona Dajani
Going the EV route versus we call it ice the you know the yes so 4 and I think that the United States.
00:18:50 Chris Sass
Entering combustion engine.
00:18:58 Mona Dajani
Is behind is woefully behind Europe, is woefully behind.
00:19:04 Mona Dajani
Asia, you know in certain respects too as well.
00:19:07 Chris Sass
But you mentioned something when we talked not long ago, that seemed to help tip the scales a little bit. And this was in Arkansas. There was a little discovery.
00:19:10 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:19:15 Mona Dajani
Oh yes.
00:19:16 Chris Sass
And that's where I was going with this, with the question, maybe you want to talk a little bit about that because you know we we look at oil majors and if you if you side up with them, most people just assume automatically they're up to no good and that they're trying to for long business as long as they can and aren't really looking at renewables. But yet I think this discovery.
00:19:18
Oh, OK.
00:19:36 Chris Sass
Aligns with maybe a reframing of that thought process.
00:19:40
Yes.
00:19:40 Mona Dajani
Right, so this was fairly recent. UM.
00:19:45 Mona Dajani
It was the largest lithium mine discovery, and it happened to be in Arkansas and Exxon Mobil was behind it. And I think that.
00:19:57 Mona Dajani
That will will definitely help lower the cost.
00:20:03 Mona Dajani
Of batteries, that's what lithium is used for. And I think what, what, what I see happening is that you know it it will catch on. It's just right now people are saying that it's just it's it's hard for them to switch because they see there's not a big.
00:20:25 Mona Dajani
Economic incentive to move to EVs versus.
00:20:30 Mona Dajani
Is, you know, using gas.
00:20:32 Chris Sass
Well, I don't know. I mean 7500 plus the the, the other the the incentives in the state level, you can get into like a Tesla three series for a really good deal if you want to be in a high end car.
00:20:45 Chris Sass
For.
00:20:45 Chris Sass
A good price. So I I I would argue it's not a bad time. And then there's a lot of inventory of EV's that people just haven't bought, so you can probably get some.
00:20:46 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:20:53 Chris Sass
Wheels on an EV right now.
00:20:55 Mona Dajani
Yeah, I think it's not a bad time, but if we it's totally and I agree with you, Chris, it's not a bad time. It's a great time. It's always a good time. I think there's a lot of range anxiety unfortunately here in the United States.
00:21:09 Mona Dajani
But if if you really compare apples to apples, I think in the long run you can save money with the credits, et cetera with an EV. And I think that this large discovery in Arkansas, which is the largest in the world right now.
00:21:30 Mona Dajani
Is going to drive the price down and I think that is also part of it.
00:21:34 Mona Dajani
Uh, you have people that are that have Eva's because they believe in saving the planet and it's clean energy and then you have those that are.
00:21:43 Mona Dajani
Like.
00:21:45 Mona Dajani
It's clean, but I'm really doing this because it's cool. May not you know, it's cool and and there's a image that goes with it.
00:21:53 Mona Dajani
And if you look at other countries that have a higher conversion rate for EVE.
00:22:00 Mona Dajani
These there's more incentives. They're more incentivized to buy EV's, and it's it's more economic driven. If I if I'm. If I'm focusing on Norway and some other European countries. So yeah. So I think here.
00:22:20 Mona Dajani
I'm it's it's it's slowly gaining. We've right now. We've had some hard.
00:22:29 Mona Dajani
Issues come up, you know, in our industry with heat, with EV's, here in the United States, we've seen some bankruptcies of some, you know, big spectacular failures we have, we have others that are doing well but you know.
00:22:48 Mona Dajani
The name of the game is the technology and really getting ahead.
00:22:55 Chris Sass
So if if Majora's own lithium do they support the renewable then or because I mean you, you you basically bring the lithium out, but then you recycle it. You know, if I get a tank of gas.
00:23:07 Chris Sass
I burn the barrel of oil that I buy from you or barrels of oil I buy from you, and then I come back and buy more and you explore and you get more or you make whatever synthetic you're.
00:23:12 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:23:15 Chris Sass
Gonna.
00:23:15 Chris Sass
Make me or whatever you do for me, but with lithium.
00:23:17 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:23:19 Chris Sass
That kind of puts them out of business at some point, or they eventually can't find markets to keep growing, right?
00:23:25 Mona Dajani
I think the market's going to keep on growing, Chris. I don't think that it's it's not going to stop growing. I do. I will say that.
00:23:33 Mona Dajani
I think it's a big deal that it's ExxonMobil. They should be commended. They're there's a lot of people in the clean energy space that.
00:23:44 Mona Dajani
Are very much like anti fossil fuel anti oil anti gas and you know they're it's interesting because we've seen again the leaders in renewables for with respect to big oil majors was Europe you know was it European companies.
00:24:04 Mona Dajani
And then.
00:24:06 Mona Dajani
We saw them now rotate out and we're seeing more American companies, oil majors, big energy majors, really investing in newer technologies and clean energy. And with this lithium mine that Exxon Mobil was behind, I think yes.
00:24:25 Mona Dajani
It is. It's going to definitely add more to the story and drive prices lower in lithium, but this is just one space. This is, you know in in the whole.
00:24:41 Mona Dajani
In the whole rainbow of different technologies and clean energy. So.
00:24:45 Chris Sass
Well, let's let's.
00:24:46 Chris Sass
Talk about another one that's been around for a long period of time is nuclear, and you know, there's this resurged interest in nuclear. There's been a fair amount of investment in small modular reactors. There's tend to be from everything you say, a little bit of further away for deployment. But if I look at this deal for a three Mile Island and bringing a reactor, that was, you know, just kind of sitting by ready to come back online.
00:25:08 Chris Sass
In Constellation, doing a deal to bring that online pretty interesting stuff, what's your perspective there?
00:25:15 Mona Dajani
Yeah, I'm. I really feel like uh, you know, I'm glad to see nuclear come into the discussion. They were the nuclear industry was basically shunned. And now it's coming. There's a resurgence of nuclear. And the reason why.
00:25:35 Mona Dajani
Is because it is clean.
00:25:39 Mona Dajani
But there's such an insatiable demand by AI and data centers they can't keep up. And so you'll notice that the the, the, these SMR's.
00:25:51 Mona Dajani
Have really been pushed forward. the Champions are these technology companies, you know, Google, Microsoft, Amazon and so I'm also very hopeful for nuclear too. And I think it's a great technology. I think that a lot of different changes.
00:26:10 Mona Dajani
Have have been instituted to improve nuclear so that it will be safe and I think it's a, you know, it's we we cannot on just on renewables and fossil fuel keep up with the demand without nuclear.
00:26:29 Chris Sass
So do you think that depending on which administration comes in, that there's a difference on the view or is that is that ship?
00:26:35 Chris Sass
Sailing, no matter who's in charge.
00:26:38 Mona Dajani
I think the ship is probably it should sail no matter who's in charge. It should, but you know each of them, you know, have different views. But you know, we don't know yet how. What, who, who? The next administration is going to be.
00:27:00 Mona Dajani
And whether it's, you know, nuclear is going to be welcomed as it is now.
00:27:07 Mona Dajani
So I I'm hopeful because I think it's it's a technology that's been around for a very long time, has been improved for safety and frankly we need it to keep up with the insatiable demand by data centers and AI.
00:27:23 Chris Sass
But it's a slow process, right? If if you're going to go put in a large reactor, not a small modular reactor, but a large one, cost and time is significant.
00:27:33 Mona Dajani
Yes.
00:27:33 Chris Sass
And and does it help us soon.
00:27:35 Chris Sass
Enough.
00:27:36 Chris Sass
If you're worried about global warming and you're worried about climate change, even if we start building a bunch of plants, I mean, China, I think puts the most nuclear plants in the world these days. Currently, I think they're the ones building the most, but even if we suddenly flip a switch and go all in.
00:27:44 Mona Dajani
Right.
00:27:46
Right.
00:27:49 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:27:50 Chris Sass
Is it quick enough?
00:27:52 Mona Dajani
You know, it's interesting. I think that the first of all, the Chinese are also the leaders of the electrolyzers as well. In addition of of a number of other technologies too and.
00:28:07 Mona Dajani
Look, I think.
00:28:10 Mona Dajani
You know we are. I don't I I don't think it's going to be enough. No, I don't. I think that it certainly will help.
00:28:19 Mona Dajani
But there are still safety standards that we have to adhere to and they cost a lot of money and they take, you know, they're they're very capital intensive, just like hydrogen.
00:28:34 Mona Dajani
And so the only way that I see nuclear at this point, I see a lot of smars, you know more on the small scale. And I think that once.
00:28:45 Mona Dajani
There's more government support. We'll see more nuclear. Will it be enough? I don't. I really. You know, I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't. I think that the ship has sailed. We haven't deployed enough clean energy.
00:29:06 Mona Dajani
So we're gonna, we have seen just horrific climate change weather patterns and you know, fires, hurricanes, cyclones.
00:29:18 Mona Dajani
That are that are, in my mind much worse than they were.
00:29:24 Mona Dajani
100 years ago and before, because of climate change. So I do think it will help.
00:29:31 Mona Dajani
But is it enough to save the world?
00:29:34 Mona Dajani
I'm sorry to say, I think the ship.
00:29:36 Mona Dajani
Sailed.
00:29:37 Chris Sass
You don't think it's there, right? So you you mentioned another technology and this is one of your passions, hydrogen and you and I've spoken hydrogen before. There's a lot of hype with clean hydro.
00:29:42 Mona Dajani
Yes.
00:29:45
Yeah.
00:29:48 Chris Sass
Region.
00:29:49 Mona Dajani
Yes.
00:29:50 Chris Sass
And the IRA is one of those situations where the US had an amazing opportunity. I was living in Europe with the time when the IRA was coming to fruition, working energy market and Europeans were all very nervous because with the IRA, it really was an opportunity to really put the United States in top position. Now turn the clock.
00:30:10 Chris Sass
That a couple of years or a little bit and it doesn't seem to have that same momentum or experience of all the detail. What's going on with hydrogen?
00:30:18 Mona Dajani
So, UM, I'll say that it's interesting. First of all, the IRA is a game changer.
00:30:26 Mona Dajani
And the whole reason that it was passed was.
00:30:32 Mona Dajani
You know, to put the United States ahead of Europe and other continents on for clean energy, put our mouth for our money is and really try to get off the ground. A number of industries that you know that.
00:30:51 Mona Dajani
Focus on clean energy.
00:30:54 Mona Dajani
And hydrogen was one of them. And they what what happened was the IRA was passed. And then after the IRA, there was the Department of Treasury.
00:31:09 Mona Dajani
As well as the IRS.
00:31:12 Mona Dajani
Is going to is issuing guidance for certain technologies and.
00:31:20 Mona Dajani
Excuse me? It's so dry in.
00:31:22 Mona Dajani
Here.
00:31:24 Mona Dajani
So what happened with hydrogen? Was draft comments were so-called leaked, they really weren't leaked, but so-called as what was that was reported in the press.
00:31:39 Mona Dajani
And.
00:31:41 Mona Dajani
Basically, instead of being more open about what you need to get the tax credits, it became much more difficult.
00:31:53 Mona Dajani
And I, that's another Chris, I could go into this, you know with.
00:31:56 Mona Dajani
The three pillars.
00:31:58 Mona Dajani
And the the specifics on what the differences.
00:32:02 Mona Dajani
Are.
00:32:03 Mona Dajani
But essentially it was focusing entirely on green hydrogen as opposed to clean hydrogen. And clean hydrogen is hydrogen that could be produced other than green as well, so it could be blue, could be pink from nuclear blue from gas, there's others Gray.
00:32:22 Mona Dajani
And the guidance there was over 40,000 comments.
00:32:29 Mona Dajani
And it still hasn't been finalized to date. The Department of Treasury made a public announcement and said that they hope to have the guidelines finalized by the end of this year.
00:32:45 Mona Dajani
And and the reason was because they were. They were taking into account the 45,000 comments. So I'm hopeful that they've made it.
00:33:00 Mona Dajani
Less restrictive so that there are more companies that are willing to get into this very capital intensive business of hydrogen.
00:33:12 Chris Sass
OK. You you haven't given me the warm fuzzy that we're over the hurdle that, that, that all is good, but it it doesn't sound like the world's ended yet, but it seems like there's potential that it could go either way and that we have to wait and see is kind of what I'm hearing.
00:33:25 Mona Dajani
Yeah, I think put it this way. I'm I'm gonna. I'm gonna be a little more forthright. There are with with green hydrogen. I think we're there. I think with other technologies.
00:33:39 Mona Dajani
There are. I could tell you this. There are many different stakeholders, whether they're, you know, producers, whether they're customers, whether they're pipe manufacturers that are very bullish on hydrogen regardless and.
00:33:59 Mona Dajani
I don't think it's going away because.
00:34:01 Chris Sass
No, but I see the rest of the world is moving. Europe was very foot on the gas, while Germany really wanted.
00:34:07 Chris Sass
Regen I think more so because they wanted to make the electrolyzers and all the hardware and then of course they need it for for their less dependence on on power from elsewhere. China like you said, has electrolyzers. They're really so there's there's a race to grab economies of scale and market share for the technology. So if you come late, you still might be able to.
00:34:08
Yeah.
00:34:12 Mona Dajani
Now.
00:34:14 Mona Dajani
Hi.
00:34:24
Yeah.
00:34:27 Chris Sass
And regionally, but you know from the global stage does late really help us?
00:34:33 Mona Dajani
Well, I just think that look, I could tell you I'm involved in a number of hydrogen projects all around the World, Canada, Asia, Europe, here, the United, you know, the Middle East.
00:34:48 Mona Dajani
Hydrogen is not going away. It's it's it's still, it's here, it's been embraced, especially by Europe and Asia and the Middle East.
00:35:00 Mona Dajani
I I I feel like there's a lot of projects here in the United States that I'm working on currently that.
00:35:09 Mona Dajani
They're doing this not only to save the planet, but more importantly, it's for market share.
00:35:15 Mona Dajani
They don't want to lose the market share like you said, Chris.
00:35:19 Chris Sass
OK. So we're we're coming up on time, but I have one more question because I think you've pulled this together. You talked about market.
00:35:22
Right.
00:35:24 Chris Sass
Share.
00:35:25 Mona Dajani
Yeah.
00:35:25 Chris Sass
So supply chains are global these days. There's tariffs in place. There will be tariffs in place. There's a lot of competition for different things.
00:35:34 Chris Sass
Shine the light on what we should know in that you know what? What? Put all those pieces together and kind of you know what? What should I care about? Are tariffs something that I should expect going on forward and will they work or will they kill our our plans?
00:35:47 Mona Dajani
You know, it's interesting. It depends what side you're on.
00:35:51 Mona Dajani
This is definitely a.
00:35:56 Mona Dajani
A A political issue, a political, at least in the United States, they both have different views on tariffs. I will say I'm just going to look at it from a practical point of view. I think that I definitely see both sides