Insider's Guide to Energy
The Energy Industry is uniquely evolving as traders are under increasing pressure to manage costs, cash, limits, and risks. The Insider’s Guide to Energy Podcast addresses current and emerging challenges business executives face daily through stories shared from peers and industry experts while covering topics such as innovation, disruptive technologies, and emerging trends.
Insider's Guide to Energy
182 - Pivoting on Energy: Michael Stivala and the Evolution of Suburban Propane
In this transformative episode of "The Insiders' Guide to Energy," we sit down with Michael Stivala, President & CEO of Suburban Propane, a company deeply rooted in the energy sector since 1928. Known for its pioneering approach to home delivery of propane, Suburban Propane has evolved to become one of the largest propane distributors in the United States. Michael discusses the legacy of this remarkable 95-year-old company and its strategic pivot towards a sustainable future.
Under Michael's leadership, Suburban Propane is not just distributing energy; it's innovating for the next century. He explains how the company is advocating for propane as a clean energy solution, emphasizing its low carbon intensity and significant role in a diverse energy landscape. The discussion delves into the nuances of what "clean energy" means in the context of propane and the company's efforts to reduce the carbon intensity of their offerings even further.
The conversation also explores Suburban Propane's investments in renewable energy sources, signaling a bold move towards sustainability. Michael shares insights into the company's transition from traditional propane to integrating renewable energy solutions, including renewable propane and other innovative energy alternatives. These efforts showcase Suburban Propane's commitment to adapting and leading in an increasingly eco-conscious market.
Listeners will get a sneak peek into the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead for energy distribution, particularly in how companies like Suburban Propane navigate regulatory landscapes and technological advancements to meet contemporary energy needs. Michael provides a compelling argument for the role of diversified energy solutions in achieving a lower carbon economy.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the dynamics of the energy sector, sustainability efforts within traditional energy companies, and the innovative strategies that drive the industry forward. Tune in to discover how Suburban Propane is shaping the future of energy, one clean solution at a time.
Available now on InsidersGuideToEnergy.com and wherever you enjoy your podcasts!
00:00:00 Micheal Stivala
This is a story about a 95 year old trusted provider of energy to local communities transitioning along with the the rest of society for cleaner energy sources and innovating for the next 95 years.
00:00:18 Speaker 2
Your trusted source for information on the energy transition. This is the insider's guide to Energy podcast.
00:00:30 Speaker 2
Look at the insiders guide and energy on your host Chris Sassman. With me today is Mike Savala, the CEO of Suburban Propane.
00:00:37 Speaker 2
Mike, welcome to the podcast.
00:00:38 Micheal Stivala
Thanks for having me, Chris. That's great.
00:00:41 Speaker 2
I've been looking forward to having you on the show. It was a while ago when we first talked about bringing you on the show. We've had a propane episode in the past, but before we get into.
00:00:50 Speaker 2
To do this, let's start with suburban propane. That that's a name that most Americans probably recognize.
00:00:56 Micheal Stivala
Yeah, thanks. I mean it's it's a Great American story really, you know suburban propane has been around since 1928. Our, our, our original entrepreneurial founder really started the whole concept of home delivery of propane gas and it and 95 years later where here is one of the largest propane distributors.
00:01:17 Micheal Stivala
In the.
00:01:19 Speaker 2
Now our audience generally is an energy transition audience. We like to talk about energy transition and we're talking about burning a gas. Why don't we just start from the beginning is suburban propane is doing more than just shipping gas these days. It sounds like you make some investment in.
00:01:34 Speaker 2
The future as well.
00:01:34 Micheal Stivala
That's right. I mean, one of the things that that we like to talk about around here is we're a we're a a localized distributor of energy to local communities. We're a trusted distributor of energy to local communities and we've been doing that for 95 years and and so.
00:01:51 Micheal Stivala
So our job here, as the leaders of suburban propane in 2024 is to set the business up for the next 95 years and and for us it's really A2 pronged story. It's one is advocating for why propane as a clean energy source should have a permanent.
00:02:11 Micheal Stivala
Place in society as a truly versatile portable on demand clean energy source that can meet the needs of so many aspects of our economy today.
00:02:22
Yeah.
00:02:23 Micheal Stivala
But shifting towards innovation for even cleaner fuels, including cleaner versions of of traditional propane but also additional investments that we're making in renewable energy sources. For that we believe can be distributed energy sources of the future.
00:02:45 Speaker 2
A couple of words you use. I think we just take for granted clean energy. Help me understand what you mean by clean. What's your definition?
00:02:53 Micheal Stivala
So you know, everybody has a different definition, right? And and, you know, one of the things that we want to focus on is carbon intensity. OK, I think carbon intensity scores, which which, you know, I think sort of levels the playing field right. There's a lot of conversation about electrification or renewable fuels or.
00:03:15 Micheal Stivala
Fossil fuels. The reality is that they all have a different spectrum of carbon intensity.
00:03:21 Micheal Stivala
And propane itself actually has a very low carbon intensity score because of the the the lack of contribution to the kind of greenhouse gas emissions contributors that other energy sources have, such as knocks and socks and particulate matter that are the biggest contributors.
00:03:41 Micheal Stivala
To the greenhouse gas effect, so propane itself.
00:03:46 Micheal Stivala
As as it is a clean energy source in the sense that its carbon intensity is only about 80 and if you look at the electric grid today, in the vast majority of the states in the US, 80 carbon intensity score is actually extremely competitive to the to the.
00:04:06 Micheal Stivala
Current electric grid and we're making investments to bring that carbon intensity of traditional propane down over, you know, over time. So, so you know it's a, it's a source of energy that is here and now.
00:04:22 Micheal Stivala
It it touches so many aspects of the economy that people don't even realize just the versatility of propane and and it's it's it's such an easy fuel to handle that and it it happens to be clean. So you know for us the story is there's a role for propane and cleaner.
00:04:42 Micheal Stivala
Versions of propane for for as as what we call a destination fuel, not as a, just a transition fuel, but ultimately as a destination fuel.
00:04:52 Speaker 2
So what is the supply chain of this propane? Where do we get it and how do you get it into my community? So if I live in a rural community and let's say I live up north and I want to heat, which I.
00:05:01 Speaker 2
Did at one point I had a propane in my house in New Hampshire.
00:05:06 Speaker 2
What's the journey? Where's that propane come from in?
00:05:09 Speaker 2
Explain that.
00:05:09 Micheal Stivala
Yeah. So propane today is is a byproduct of natural gas processing and and crude refining. So it's a liquid fuel that comes off of those pros.
00:05:19 Micheal Stivala
Processes so it's not purpose made but, but it is abundantly available here in the United States, we source about 99% of of of our supply right here in the United States and the rest pretty much comes from Canada. So it's a domestically produced by product that we.
00:05:39 Micheal Stivala
We we are just a retail distributor, so we have suppliers and and about 140 supply points throughout the country that we pick up.
00:05:48 Micheal Stivala
From we we we typically will take deliveries at our 700 physical locations throughout our 42 state footprint where we'll have storage of propane. We'll take those by transport or rail and and then ultimately we deliver in.
00:06:09 Micheal Stivala
Bobtail quantities to local communities.
00:06:13 Speaker 2
Now, who's signing up for propane today? I mean, I remember early days you would see city buses move to propane when they wanted to reduce pollution.
00:06:23 Speaker 2
Who are the new customers of propane today?
00:06:26 Micheal Stivala
Yes. So you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of new applications that are that are coming for for propane. You know, you talk about school buses, auto gas happens to be the third largest.
00:06:37 Micheal Stivala
Source of fuel for over the road vehicles. All right, so that's probably a very misunderstood aspect of what propane is doing today and and so and and the typical application that makes the most sense because it's not necessarily part of a, a, A fueling network where you can go to a gas station.
00:06:58 Micheal Stivala
Or a fueling station and and and get propane so it.
00:07:01 Micheal Stivala
It it is very much driven for fleets where you have a a depot where you come back to school buses, police fleets, you know U hauls and and FedEx trucks, some of them are starting to to to convert. So so it's it's a very, very akin to a fleet.
00:07:21 Micheal Stivala
Where you can put we could put a a storage tank and a dispensing station at their at their depot and and train them up so that they can do their own fueling.
00:07:33 Speaker 2
And then.
00:07:34 Speaker 2
You know, I I get the the the fleet angle, how about for heating? I I remember when I had propane the the price was fluctuated quite a bit through the year. I mean I remember you know every fall before the season buying my seasons worth of propane has that system changed at all and is that what we're going to see in the future with propane?
00:07:53 Micheal Stivala
Yeah. Well, typically the demand, the demand cycle is obviously driven towards the heating season. So there's a lot of demand.
00:08:00 Micheal Stivala
And in the November through, say, March time frame and then through the spring and summer, the demand levels off, whereas the supply is is pretty steadily produced. So so in the past, yes, you'd see a lot of.
00:08:17 Micheal Stivala
You know, variation in price from winter season to spa.
00:08:22 Micheal Stivala
Propane has become a real global commodity. You know there's more and more propane dehydrogenation facilities being being built, particularly out in Asia. So we're we're not suburban, but the US is exporting upwards of 1.5 million gallons a day.
00:08:42 Micheal Stivala
Overseas and we're producing upwards of 2.8 million gallons a day. So, so now that it's become a much more global commodity actually distributed out of the US as one of the larger districts.
00:08:56 Micheal Stivala
Theaters the the price stability has been, you know from season seasonal stability has been a lot better.
00:09:04 Speaker 2
And then about how many Americans use propane today, how how, how mainstream is it?
00:09:09 Micheal Stivala
About 55,000,000 Americans you know, rely on propane in some sort, and you know, like I said earlier, versatility is something that that we don't get enough credit for everybody. Everybody thinks about propane as their BBQ grill, right. But in reality, we're touching so many aspects. We we were just two weeks ago.
00:09:29 Micheal Stivala
We we we did a visit to Napa Valley because we.
00:09:34 Micheal Stivala
A lot of the wineries that use suburban propane to to for their growing needs, whether it's frost protection. So if you think about a a vineyard that maybe has 130 acres.
00:09:48 Micheal Stivala
Well, if it gets to be below 32°.
00:09:52 Micheal Stivala
The the the the vines can can be at risk of of frost and so there's wind turbines strategically located throughout the vineyard and at the base of those turbines is a tank that will provide to to the vineyard.
00:10:06 Micheal Stivala
And and that you know, as soon as the the weather comes in and and there's the risk of frost, they turn those turbines on and and they're all run on propane what you know additionally the the vineyards are starting to to migrate more towards propane irrigation pumps as opposed to.
00:10:26 Micheal Stivala
Diesel as well as their backup generators, because if if you know, especially in California where you have rolling blackouts, you have wildfires, you know the the risk of of of a power outage that could take your.
00:10:42 Micheal Stivala
Your seller out of Commission for a period of time is just too much risk, so you know the the vineyard community really relies heavily on propane, so very agricultural home heating. We talked about commercial.
00:10:58 Speaker 2
Let's go back to the air quality issue. So you mentioned some of the gases, it doesn't do, maybe let's spend just a couple moments on why it's better, what what makes it better, you know, what are the impacts to humans? What are the impacts, the environment? Help us unpack that just to.
00:11:14 Micheal Stivala
So there's virtually no nitrous.
00:11:17 Micheal Stivala
All right. And there's virtually no sulfur dioxide, and there's no particular matter particulate matter. So those and and if there is an incident where there's a release, it's a vapor. So it it it, you know, it will evaporate into.
00:11:37 Micheal Stivala
Into into the air versus, you know, some of the heavier fuels that that may contaminate the soil or the groundwater. You you don't have that risk when it comes to when it comes to propane. So it doesn't contribute to it doesn't have the the chemical qualities that contribute to the greenhouse gas effect, which is why it gets.
00:11:57 Micheal Stivala
A relatively low carbon intensity score versus other energy sources.
00:12:03 Speaker 2
What about a bio version or a synthetic version? Where are?
00:12:06 Micheal Stivala
We in that so as more and more renewable diesel production is coming online staff sustainable aviation fuel as as I know your viewers are going to know very well. Similarly renewable propane is a byproduct of those production.
00:12:07
Are not.
00:12:24 Micheal Stivala
Cream. So a lot of the renewable propane being produced today is coming from.
00:12:31 Micheal Stivala
Cooking oils, fats, greases and and it's a byproduct of of those production facilities. So what where as a as a propane distributor work. What we're working with the refineries on is today most of those that are producing SAP and renewable diesel are just feeding the.
00:12:50 Micheal Stivala
Propane renewable propane back as process heat for the for the production and you know there's a huge market for propane in the United States you know.
00:13:03 Micheal Stivala
As a country, we we sell about 11 billion gallons a year of of of traditional propane that's between the chemical industry takes about half of it. And then what we distribute is the other half. So you know, so it there's a tremendous amount of demand for a lower carbon.
00:13:23 Micheal Stivala
Source of propane, which renewable propane depending on the feedstocks.
00:13:28 Micheal Stivala
Source is can range from 20 to 60 in carbon intensity, so you're you know you can. You can see that you can already approach net zero just by going to renewable propane.
00:13:39 Speaker 2
But renewable propane is not renewable.
00:13:42 Speaker 2
Natural gas, correct?
00:13:43 Micheal Stivala
That's different. Totally different. Yeah, we now we we can get into that later because suburban propane is now a distributor of renewable natural gas as well. But but as it relates to renewable propane, it's still a byproduct of renewable diesel and safe production.
00:13:59 Speaker 2
Alright, so we've talked a bit about the impact. One of the things I recalled in one of our earlier conversations, we were talking about the policy to electrified vehicles and get everybody in electric vehicles. And you had an opinion about that. Why don't you share what that what that was? I think the audience might find this interesting.
00:14:16
Well, you know.
00:14:17 Micheal Stivala
I think the the the expectation that we are going to expand the use of electricity in not only vehicles you know, but just even just take vehicles and and the the the amount of the the amount of.
00:14:37
Uh.
00:14:39 Micheal Stivala
Traditional vehicles that would that could potentially be replaced by electric vehicles, that would be a significant drain on the power grid in any state you layer on top of that.
00:14:52 Micheal Stivala
All of the all of the capacity needed for data center.
00:14:57 Micheal Stivala
There's the the proliferation of AI that's going to take a significant amount of power to to to to to fuel all that warehousing and and all of that activity all coming at once. It's it's very unrealistic. I would I would categorize it as impossible to think that.
00:15:19 Micheal Stivala
The grid as it stands today is going to be able to handle that, and even as additional renewable sources of electricity from wind and solar continue to expand, you're talking about a significant amount of electrification. To meet that much of societies.
00:15:39 Micheal Stivala
Energy needs and so I just think that we're kidding ourselves to think that society can run on electricity alone. And on top of that, you layer in the intermittency and that the need for resiliency.
00:15:55 Micheal Stivala
Where's you know? Where's the backup? Power opportunity. So you know, for us propane is is such an on demand energy source that can reach any community whether it's out in the middle of nowhere, whether it's in a big city we're we're there to provide local.
00:16:14 Micheal Stivala
Communities with the energy that they need and to provide the the resiliency in the form of backup power to to support the grid. So so our our position.
00:16:25 Micheal Stivala
Is.
00:16:26 Micheal Stivala
If we're going to solve for lower carbon, a lower carbon economy, we need to we need to stop talking about one solution.
00:16:36 Micheal Stivala
And taken all of the above approach and and that's why as I said earlier, carbon intensity levels that playing field. So if if the goal is to get to 0.
00:16:48 Micheal Stivala
Bro.
00:16:49 Micheal Stivala
Carbon.
00:16:51 Micheal Stivala
Well, we just talked about how we can take propane from 80 to maybe 20. What we didn't talk about is suburban propane also has an investment in a startup company that produces renewable dimethyl ether.
00:17:05 Micheal Stivala
And we're testing blends of renewable dimethyl ether, or RDM E with traditional propane today in forklift engines. And so our DME depending on the feedstock source could have a negative, call it 100 carbon intensity.
00:17:25 Micheal Stivala
And if you blend that with propane or better yet renewable propane.
00:17:31 Micheal Stivala
You can approach net zero.
00:17:33 Micheal Stivala
And so.
00:17:35 Micheal Stivala
All that can be achieved through the existing infrastructure that that is available to store, transport and utilize traditional propane without changing out all of that infrastructure. So as innovation as we're innovating, we're bringing the carbon intensity.
00:17:55 Micheal Stivala
Closer and closer to net zero. So if that's the goal, I think we can get there in the coming, you know, five years.
00:18:04 Speaker 2
The conversations about carbon intensity, you've also been active in states like New Mexico and some other things. Maybe you want to explain a little bit of what, what the.
00:18:13 Speaker 2
Initiatives there that.
00:18:13 Micheal Stivala
You're part of. Are. Yeah. So California, you know, has one of the most advanced low carbon fuel standards that they were the one of the first, the first state to to.
00:18:24 Micheal Stivala
Dropped and and that that is sort of the gold standard that a lot of states are evaluating as as they think about similar programs and and you know we we're we are have a big presence in California we're generating credits in California under the LCFS program by selling traditional propane today but as the.
00:18:44 Micheal Stivala
As the as the glide path of of carbon emission requirements takes shape under the LCFS programs under the California regulations.
00:18:56 Micheal Stivala
You know propane in the traditional sense sooner will will become deficit generating, but renewable propane can continue to meet those standards and blended propane can further extend the life cycle of of achieving those standards and New Mexico.
00:19:16 Micheal Stivala
Was it was evaluating a similar program and and we were we were active in, in working with the the governor's office to to support that bill and it's it's a bill that does look very similar to California's program.
00:19:31 Speaker 2
How many people generally work in the propane industry? How how? How big of employment base is that for America?
00:19:36 Micheal Stivala
Yeah, it's, it's it's upwards of of I mean, suburban propane has 3200 employees. You know we're the third largest in the country. It's it's, I would say it's about 50,000 people working in the industry.
00:19:52 Speaker 2
All right. So so we've talked a little bit about.
00:19:54 Speaker 2
You know the the carbon impact and and the fuels, what about impacts to the electric grid? You know we're an insiders guide to energy. We talk about the grid a lot. Where does propane fit into to policy and about the grid and and how does that all work together.
00:20:10 Micheal Stivala
Well, so we're we're a great backup source to the grid. And in fact when when you look at some of the.
00:20:18 Micheal Stivala
When you look at something like, for instance, Verizon, where they have cell towers, right, so we're we're we're a a major source of backup power to to to keep the the cell service active in in a lot of parts of the country where.
00:20:38 Micheal Stivala
Again, as an on demand energy source, you can you can place a tank at the base of of an energy source so you know or something that needs to stay active at all times to ensure resiliency of of our ability to communicate and.
00:20:54 Micheal Stivala
If there's a as we see in Florida quite a bit. If there's a power outages as a result of hurricanes or or in California as a result of wildfires or whatever or just rolling blackouts, propane can be there to, to, to power up, you know, lots of.
00:21:11 Speaker 2
So basically you're using the propane to fire generators on.
00:21:14 Speaker 2
This all these.
00:21:14 Micheal Stivala
Yeah, that's right.
00:21:14 Speaker 2
Cables. They're they're just running the generator. And then I think I've seen quite a few generations have multiple fuel types and assume propane is one of the ones you can just burn in in the generator.
00:21:26 Speaker 2
But that's not a new use, right? That's that's an existing use. Do you? Do you see that use is growing instead of having diesel generators, you see them as propane powered in the future?
00:21:36 Micheal Stivala
Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot more folks that are that are looking at, you know, new generation capacity and and for sure they're looking at cleaner versions and propane. You know there are natural propane and natural gas depending on your ability to to to hook up to a natural gas source.
00:21:57 Micheal Stivala
You know that those are your two options to get a cleaner version, but where portability is important. Propane is is is the selected.
00:22:06 Micheal Stivala
A fuel source.
00:22:08 Speaker 2
Alright so.
00:22:09 Speaker 2
I I've picked up through this interview, I think some of our audience is gonna be skeptical just to be candid, because they're they're they're looking things is 1 strategy that you have is blending, it's it's to get more reduce the carbon and see what you can get the most out of the gas. But you also mentioned offhandedly some investments that you've made in future technologies.
00:22:29 Speaker 2
We talked about renewable natural gas. What are some of the things if you turn the clock ahead? So if I looked at it and and I know I've had a guest yell at me for doing this before because I said there's some transition technologies that just put less carbon out today and and and they they put a flag down in the plane and didn't let me say that. But you know, I I so let's assume this is something transitioned.
00:22:49 Speaker 2
Going on, where do you see the industry going in the future? So what? What are the cleaner technologies even them propane down the road where you know the next 90 years as you?
00:22:59 Micheal Stivala
Said so, we we have, we we created suburban renewable energy which is a subsidiary of ours that focuses on all of our renewable investments.
00:23:10 Micheal Stivala
And we started that in 2020.
00:23:12 Micheal Stivala
To underneath that we have the investment that we have in a company called Oberon Fuels, which is the producer of renewable dimethyl ether, which which we're working on blending. The second investment we made. This was also in a in a a early stage hydrogen producer and and and so we believe that you know.
00:23:32 Micheal Stivala
As hydrogen clean hydrogen.
00:23:34 Micheal Stivala
Production expands and and hydrogen begins to.
00:23:41 Speaker 2
When you're saying cleaner, you mean like blue where you're using it from burning a gas to create it? Or are you talking green?
00:23:46 Micheal Stivala
Green or or teal I I I don't like to really get into the into the hydrogen rainbow. I think again we we look at the carbon intensity of the hydrogen that we're producing and and I think.
00:24:01 Micheal Stivala
Even the the inflation reduction acts and and some of the incentives that come out, a lot of that is driven on what is the carbon intensity is is going to is going to dictate this the the level of the production tax credit that you're going to be available to to claim but. But so for us it's it's it's a very ultra low carbon.
00:24:22 Micheal Stivala
Hydrogen that this company that we made an investment in is producing from waste stream. So one of the one of the waste streams out of chloralkali and bleach production is hydrogen. And so today it's all.
00:24:36 Micheal Stivala
Vented into the atmosphere and so we're capturing that, purifying it, compressing it and putting it into gaseous small quantities for localized distribution. And so the reason our investment thesis there was.
00:24:54 Micheal Stivala
We are the experts in localized energy distribution.
00:24:59 Micheal Stivala
Today it happens to be propane tomorrow, as perhaps hydrogen. If hydrogen is going to be the answer to more distributed aspects of the economy, it's going to need to be locally, locally, you know, delivered. And so that's something that we should bring our expertise.
00:25:19 Micheal Stivala
In customer service safety logistics.
00:25:24 Micheal Stivala
To to really drive the efficiency and the reliability of that distribution network. And so we're working with this company independence hydrogen to to support their efforts to commercialize their business model of producing locally.
00:25:44 Micheal Stivala
Distributing smaller quantities locally.
00:25:47 Micheal Stivala
Which is very different than the current hydrogen model of large industrial gas companies that are producing large quantities and distributing it in liquid form across miles and miles of of of the of the country, which happens to be also very carbon intensive. So so as as.
00:26:06 Micheal Stivala
You know, as other aspects of the economy begin to evaluate cleaner energy sources and the technology advances around fuel cells and and and so forth to accommodate clean hydrogen. We we want to be be there to to be that trust.
00:26:25 Micheal Stivala
Distributor of clean energy, the the third investment we made is in renewable natural gas. And so that's a little different for suburban propane because now we're actually owning assets that produce renewable at natural gas from waste streams. So we have 3 facilities. One is one of the largest.
00:26:44 Micheal Stivala
Facilities that takes dairy manure from 55,000 cows down in Arizona.
00:26:51 Micheal Stivala
And we're producing upwards of 450,000 M BTU's of renewable natural gas from from manure down in Arizona. All that today is getting distributed into California into the transportation market, you know, because that's where most of the incentives are as as as that.
00:27:11 Micheal Stivala
Uh.
00:27:12 Micheal Stivala
As renewable natural gas, which is truly a drop in replacement for traditional natural gas in our case, what we're producing in Arizona has a negative intensity of about 300. So, so you know, you're taking a a, a waste source that is a big contributor of methane gas and you're you're converting it into renewable natural gas.
00:27:34 Micheal Stivala
Which can be a direct drop in replacement for traditional natural gas, but with an ultra low.
00:27:40 Micheal Stivala
Ultra negative carbon intensity. So. So we're now purpose purpose built production of renewable natural gas because again we still believe that the society is going to need those cleaner fuels and and it's going to have to reach into aspects of the economy.
00:28:02 Micheal Stivala
That are going to be locally distributed and we want to take our expertise and do that.
00:28:07 Speaker 2
Do you believe that in the future folks in rural settings will still use propane to heat, or will there be heat pump options for them?
00:28:16 Speaker 2
In the future, is or is.
00:28:18 Speaker 2
The propane heating getting much more efficient.
00:28:21 Micheal Stivala
Propane heating is more efficient. Heat pumps are are a thing that is certainly taking getting a lot of attention in the Northeast right now. We actually a lot of a lot of a lot of instances we're working.
00:28:38 Micheal Stivala
With the the the consumers to actually power the heat pump with propane. But but what we're finding is the again the efficiency is not quite there yet. The dependability, the resilience is is just not up to where our propane.
00:28:58 Micheal Stivala
Furnace is is is as it as it is today. Technology is going to continue to.
00:29:03 Micheal Stivala
Advance.
00:29:04 Micheal Stivala
And and and I'm not saying that heat pumps are not going to be certainly an Ave. where where, where consumers can can seek to to get their their heating needs. But you know for us.
00:29:17 Micheal Stivala
We can work.
00:29:17 Micheal Stivala
Side by side as as the energy source for that pump as well.
00:29:22 Speaker 2
So that that would you say that's uncovered opportunities you as a leader of the company to to find opportunities to move into future technologies in the IRA opening doors for you?
00:29:32 Micheal Stivala
Well, there's a lot to there's still a lot of. There's still a lot to to be determined as to as to how all the the the laws are going to be carried out. So I think today it's it's there's a lot of.
00:29:47 Micheal Stivala
Uncertainty. But but we are absolutely paying very close attention and the things that we have invested in, whether it's Oberon, where we have a 38% stake, whether it's independence, hydrogen, where we have a 25% stake or whether it's our renewable natural gas platform where we own it outright, all of those businesses.
00:30:07 Micheal Stivala
As it stands today, should be eligible to to participate in production in both investment tax credits and production tax credits.
00:30:16 Speaker 2
Well, Mike, this has been very informative. I thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and sharing your visions and sharing what Suburban propane is up, dude, thank.
00:30:25 Speaker 2
You very much.
00:30:25 Micheal Stivala
OK, Chris. Thanks.
00:30:27 Speaker 2
For our audience, we hope you've enjoyed this edition of the Insiders guide to Energy. If you like the content, don't forget to subscribe. Follow us on YouTube. If you have comments or feedback, don't forget to leave those as well. We'll talk to.
00:30:38 Speaker 2
You again soon.
00:30:39 Speaker 2
On the insiders guide to energy, bye for now.