Insider's Guide to Energy
The Energy Industry is uniquely evolving as traders are under increasing pressure to manage costs, cash, limits, and risks. The Insider’s Guide to Energy Podcast addresses current and emerging challenges business executives face daily through stories shared from peers and industry experts while covering topics such as innovation, disruptive technologies, and emerging trends.
Insider's Guide to Energy
136 – The Backbone of U.S. Solar Industry
The solar boom across the world heralds changes in the way we think about energy systems. It also creates a. whole new type of labor. The US has 2,63,000 jobs in solar operations today, this would need to be 4x by 2030 just to meet demand for new installations, commissioning, operations, and maintenance. Join us, as we chat with Will White, Solar Application Specialist at Fluke about the importance of testing and predictive maintenance for the new systems of the global energy transition.
Hosts: Chris Sass
Additional Reads:
Fluke: https://www.fluke.com/
Tools and Techniques for Commissioning and Maintaining PV Systems: https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/classes/tools-and-techniques-for-commissioning-and-maintaining-pv-systems
04:10.70
chrissass
Welcome to insider's guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass, and today we're going to talk with Will White, Solar Application Specialist at Fluke will welcome to the program I am happy to have you on the show. Um, as I alluded to in our precall I wanted to start out with.
04:16.41
Will White
Thanks Chris I'm excited to be here.
04:26.93
chrissass
What exactly is a solar application specialist at fluke or anywhere. Ah, it's not a term I'm familiar with So what is it that you do.
04:34.30
Will White
Yeah that's a great question and it's ah it's a term that's a kind of unique even within fluke and so basically fluke. We're a a manufacturer of test and measurement equipment. So multimeters, Clamp Meters thermal imaging cameras things like that and we've moved into the solar industry. But. Before I joined fluke. There weren't a lot of people on staff who had experience with solar energy storage electric vehicle charging. So essentially, I am the on-staff subject matter expert for anything renewable energy solar energy storage. Electric vehicle supply equipment micro-grids all those technologies.
05:12.61
chrissass
And so you have measurement equipment. Um, and we've done a number of episodes in the past on solar and maintaining solar and things like that. Um, where do you spend your time. What what kind of things are you looking at or what is the solar energy industry need measurement equipment for.
05:27.23
Will White
Yeah, the it's used for many different things testing measurements done in the installation process of solar and energy storage. We see it a lot in commissioning and then especially in operations and maintenance while they're maintaining the system if there's. Problems with the system they're going to need to troubleshoot so they'll use test and measurement equipment for that even just in regular making sure everything's working properly. That's where we see the applications for our products.
05:56.43
chrissass
So is the problem statement. You're coming across when commissioning that you don't want to have your equipment catch on fire have your or and melt or is it that you want to see the performa based on the investor's criteria. What what? what? kind of things are you looking for.
06:10.39
Will White
Yeah, all the above. You know once an installation is done or or finishing they commission the system to ensure first off that everything is working right? to begin with catch any problems before they turn the system on for us. What our tools are used for a lot is actually recording data to set a baseline so they know on day one. Everything actually worked the way it was supposed to and then they can use that to go back in the future when if they run into issues with the problem or issues with the system. They can look back and see okay, you know what was the measurement when the system first started up so they have that historic data. There.
06:53.60
chrissass
When when you start a system up. Are you comparing a baseline to Manufacturers recommendations or like engineering calculations. So you'll figure out the impedience of the wire you'll figure out everything there and you kind of go. Okay, we should be seeing this kind of voltage going through here and we're not. And you fine tune it to get the Baseline or are you just looking at reality and just saying okay this is the baseline.
07:16.71
Will White
You know it's a little bit of both so they they have designs for the system. So They know what the operating parameters are they'll go through and do simple checks like voltage testing testing polarity surprisingly is ah is a simple but very important test. Um, insulation resistance testing to ensure that the the wires haven't been compromised during the installation process and then Ivy curve testing which is a test specific to solar modules to ensure the module or the string of Modules is operating properly.
07:45.64
chrissass
All right? So for me who doesn't know what an Ivy curve testing is what does that entail I mean what? what? how sophisticated are these tests and what are you doing.
07:58.42
Will White
It's a very specialized test for solar and specific to Photovoltaic Modules. So It's testing the voltage and the current of the module and graphing a point between the 2 to ensure the module is operating properly. In a normal Ivy curve Test. You'll get a nice curve and then you can see where the power is which will be at the knee of that curve when you have issues with the module. There'll be discrepancies in the curve. So There might be a notch in the curve or voltage or current or reduced. Um, so you can see things with an Ivy curve that you wouldn't be able to see with normal voltage or current testing.
08:34.29
chrissass
Now your engagement you said is kind of with the construction and through the project. How do do Developers solar developers or project leads interact with you are you are you brought in in the planning phase are you brought in early are you on a contract throughout the lifecycle of of a solar project where. Where do you fit into this equation.
08:54.25
Will White
Yeah,, that's that's actually not something that I typically do or or fluke does will be brought in to discuss testing measurement options and the tools and the different tools that we provide and how they can implement them in the field. Um, there are companies that will be brought in by these contractors by Asset owners by Financers who will do the test in Measurement. Um, another part of my job is training So We do a lot of training with technicians with our distributor partner with our sales team. Um, and with people working in the field. Um on how to use test and measurement equipment. Um, effectively and most importantly safely while they're out out doing the actual work.
09:41.79
chrissass
So training is a a good point that to come up and I think we talked about this as well when we spoke initially about the staffing of people. Um, if you look at the growth rate or projected growth rates for solar. Ah, you need a lot of people right to be brought into the industry. Um.
09:45.11
Will White
Are.
09:53.35
Will White
Um, yeah.
09:58.12
chrissass
And the skill sets need to be there so is is using test and measurement a fundamental skill set or is this maybe your advanced troubleshooting team. You know is every installer going to need to use your be able to use a tool set like a flu or some other device or only certain skilled people on a team.
10:13.94
Will White
Yeah, it. It actually goes across the spectrum. So everything from electricians just wiring up modules who need to do basic voltage testing and polarity testing all the way through. The specialized tools like ivy curve testers or power quality analyzers on the ac side of the system. So it. It really does go across the board and to your point. Um, there are ah right now with this the last solar job census showed that there was about. 263000 people working in the solar industry. Um, but Sia the solar energy industry association predicts that in order to get to the twenty thirty climate change goals to deploy enough solar to be able to meet those goals. We're going to need about a million people in the solar industry by 2030. So I mean that's a 4 time growth from where we're at now. So yeah, bringing all those people in the industry There's definitely a lot of training needs. There.
11:10.65
chrissass
The kind of tools that the people are using in solar projects are these like Iot tools that sit in throughout the lifecycle of the project or is this something I'm clipping some alligator clips onto something and testing as we go along the way.
11:22.79
Will White
Yeah there's both so most systems especially when you get into the commercial and the utility scale systems. The larger ones have data acquisition systems that are constantly monitoring what's going on with the system from the Dc side to the Ac side. Um, so the asset owners know what the state of the of the system is ah pretty much at any time 24 hours a day even when you get into residential systems. Each inverter has its own monitoring platform. So homeowners can pull the app up on their phone see how their system is producing. Now when you get into the the technical side of it of the installation and the troubleshooting there are tests that we do with handheld standalone meters that go above and beyond what those data acquisition systems can provide.
12:13.74
chrissass
I guess and still not totally around what we're testing for right? I guess you could see performance. Overall performance should be pretty pretty straightforward test right? Did you give your baseline and 6 or twelve months you come back, you take it and you see that you're getting less energy out of your.
12:21.47
Will White
But it.
12:31.81
chrissass
Less efficiency out of your system. Um, what are the kind of advanced type texts and and where are they bringing value to who.
12:40.75
Will White
Yeah, when you are troubleshooting or or even just doing regular maintenance on large scale systems usually commercial or utility scale systems. A lot of ah maintenance professionals these days are using ah aerial thermography using drones. So they'll send a drone to fly over the array taking thermal pictures. They'll take that photography and they'll usually put it into a software that can analyze that photography and then they'll use advanced Ai and machine learning to identify specific sections of the array that are having issues. And then from there they'll go and dive deeper into the array and go to that specific point that's having a problem and do further testing and depending on what the potential problem is there's various tests they can use things like voltage and current measurements the ivy curve tracing which we talked about. Um, even thermal imaging at a specific location to maybe look at connectors between modules. There's all kinds of different diagnostic tests. They can use depending on what type of issue they're running into.
13:46.93
chrissass
Now is this generally ah a field job is this someone going out to the array. So they're out in the field. They're bringing this equipment doing the testing remotely.
13:56.31
Will White
Yeah they're doing it in the field. Um, the larger systems do have monitoring that is monitored 24 hours a day especially on the larger systems. So the people who are. Say in the office watching those systems ensuring that they're operating properly. They'll get warnings from the system. Um, so they'll have those warnings come in and they'll dispatch those to the the field operations and maintenance team to go in and really. Kind of figure out what's wrong with those What's causing those issues on the on the monitoring platform.
14:34.10
chrissass
And what kind of skills does the average employee to use the tools need to have So you said you do quite a bit of training if if you're someone looking to get into the solar industry. Um and a lot of solar installations in the Us are still kind of mom and pop operations coming in. Um.
14:38.17
Will White
Yeah, yeah.
14:50.35
chrissass
What skills would someone need and would this be a way to maybe accelerate. Someone's career by getting these kind of skills if they said hey I want to be a solar installer or I want to do some solar troubleshooting. What do you need to do to understand what kind of work you're talking about.
14:58.84
Will White
Um.
15:02.98
Will White
Yeah, it's really interesting because it's changed over the years I started in solar in 2005 I worked for a solar installer for over ten years started out you know literally putting modules on roofs moved into management was. Crew lead and then project manager and eventually became director of operations for the East Coast and when when I first started in solar the operations and maintenance and troubleshooting technicians were always the most experienced field people so you'd you'd take someone who'd been in the field for a couple of years yeah they gained that experience working with systems and you'd move them into that kind of troubleshooting role. But the industry has really changed and we we talked about the the growth of solar and how we really need to bring more people in the industry and it's gotten to the point where operations and maintenance companies are really hiring. Pretty much anyone with some kind of technical background. It's nice if they have a background an electrical or some type of construction trade. But many of them are willing to train people if they're you know, just have the interest and the desire to get in the industry. Um, so yeah, so it's it's really that that dynamic has has changed quite a bit over the last yeah seventeen years since I started in zolar.
16:19.89
chrissass
So also has there been a shift now I mean you have a fairly long history in in the solar industry especially in North America for the kind of growth are the manufacturers considering kind of testing and the equipment is that changed from how it was earlier. You know is there any difference when I buy panels and when I buy the equipment than there was maybe in 2005 with consideration of performance and testing metrics later.
16:48.42
Will White
The the modules are more or less the same I mean the the technologies changed a little bit. It's It's constantly advancing. They're more efficient than they were when I started um inverter technology is where some of that has Changed. We are seeing better monitoring at the inverter level. In the inverter Manufacturers offering features that allow for better monitoring. Um the inverter technology has also changed from when I first started to now. Um, so we have inverters now that are safer that do testing at the beginning of the day that that didn't used to be able to be performed by the inverters. Um, so we have some more advanced features there that doesn't necessarily eliminate the need for testing measurement equipment out in the field when you're doing troubleshooting commissioning um things like that.
17:36.56
chrissass
Now test and measurement equipment is this kind of standard that people all be carrying it or is this expensive enough equipment that you have one that goes multiple job sites or does every job site have this equipment with them when they're going to do an install.
17:50.58
Will White
Yeah, it depends on the piece of equipment and the test that's going to be performed. Um, all electricians have multimeters clamp meters for measuring current. So that's a type of meter that everyone has you know we usually call those tech tools. You know every technician has 1 and then there's ah ah, kind of another set of tools that are we call them like shop tools or truck tools where there's one for the team or for the area things like thermal imaging cameras power quality meters ivy curve tracers that are more expensive. So. You kind of have both um, every technician should have ah it has to have a multimeter or a clamp meter to measure simple things like voltage and current polarity things like that.
18:35.67
chrissass
And then when I go back to skills and training with all the talk of ai going on and you mentioned it before um I would suspect that that getting solutions suggested from a tool would be relatively easy today or things to look for. Because of Ai and having a large data sample size to say hey if this is happening check these things. Do. Do you see that happening in reality or is it still mostly up to the tech to decide what to do with the data points. They're getting.
19:02.23
Will White
It's definitely shifting so it. It historically has been the tech needs to know how to do math you know, know exactly what they're looking for and how to test for certain things. It is moving now towards the tools being smart enough to be able to say okay. Here's the measurements that that you took instead of you having to manually do the math we'll do the math for you and give you some information. Um, we're not quite there yet. It's it's starting to get that way. We see things um, added into technology testing measurement equipment like. Have a multifunction tool that will perform lots of different tests in solar and it has an info button on it so you push the info button at whatever test you happen to be at and it gives you a graphic of how to set the tool up so things that make it a lot easier for the technician now. It's interesting I've attended an operations and maintenance and asset owner conference for the last two years and two years ago at the conference. The big discussion was labor shortages. You know we just can't get enough people in the industry to do all the work that we need to do and this past year the conversation was still there. Still massive shortages shortages in labor. But the dynamic changed a bit to how can we use technology to make it easier for the technicians to require fewer technicians to automate those jobs.
20:30.36
Will White
They didn't necessarily have any answers to those questions of how to do that yet, but the conversation has definitely started. You know how can we use Ai how can we use machine learning automate things just to make it easier. So the conversation is definitely out there and the industry is moving in that direction for sure.
20:47.59
chrissass
So it sounds like there's demand but the solutions haven't been delivered to market yet or at scale. Um, the second thing and I think we talked about this, we alluded to it already in the conversation but it was in our pre-show conversation. Um, what's the importance. Of you know doing this and utility scale solar systems. Why you know when we're deploying do I need to do this what? What are the impacts of not doing this kind of testing and what are the risks of not doing it. So maybe we understand now we went right to bits and bytes right? We started talking about meters and testing and things like that. But so I've got a new install. Solar scale. You know it's a scale utility scale kind of deployment. What are the risks of not doing this kind of testing what happens what can go bad.
21:26.44
Will White
Well, it's a financial loss is is the main risk and when you're doing commercial and utility scale systems. Financial benefit is the motivation of the asset owners and the financial backers. Um, it's a business that makes sense. So not maintaining the systems. There's lots of things that can break down First off, just simple things like vegetation management you know grass trees growing up in the array that's going to shade the array. It's going to reduce the production. Then we've got things like our inverters especially on the larger scale inverters they have annual maintenance requirements. So there's filters that filter dust out through the ventilation system those need to be cleaned or changed um just looking at the system and making sure that things are working properly. Um, if you don't maintain these systems. They're not going to operate the way that they're designed to be and doing regular annual maintenance just even getting out there and doing a visual inspection will catch a lot of problems and prevent issues from happening in the future. Um, even on the residential scale. You know when when I first started in solar and I hate to admit this, but this was ah ah a very prevalent thing in the industry. We used to tell customers that solar is basically maintenance free. You throw the system up on the roof you know 2030 years it's going to be fine and that's turned out not necessarily to be the case.
22:51.20
Will White
Um, you know residential doesn't necessarily need as much operations and maintenance attention as the larger scale systems do but it's good to have the system checked out every 2 three years just to make sure everything is working properly. We'll definitely avoid problems in the future if you catch things early.
23:09.59
chrissass
So in in utility scale I I would expect there to be a storage component and in residential today as we move forward I think more and more people are leaning towards storage or the trend will be I don't know that's the actual trend yet. Um. How does that play into is this storage an important component to this process.
23:24.26
Will White
Absolutely yeah, 1 thing with the solar is obviously the system makes the most amount of energy when the sun is shining the tippings typically is the middle of the day so are the utility load. Also tends to be especially on the residential side relatively low during the day where most people are using things in the early evening and into the night energy storage ah allows a couple things first it gives us resilience we can use it for backup. So if there's a grid failure you have power when that grid is no longer available. But what energy storage is also allowing us to do is to store the energy generated by the solar during the day. And allowing us to use that energy at night where the solar is not producing but we have a high demand so you're absolutely seeing solar or energy storage deployed with solar on the utility scale and in the residential scale as well. Um, we see markets like Puerto Rico is ah a great market. Um, we call it the attachment rate. That's how much renewal how much battery storage is being installed with solar and the attachment rate in Puerto rico over the last year or so has been about 98 so almost every residential system installed in Puerto Rico comes with energy storage.
24:46.98
Will White
Um, when you look at other markets like California they're at about 20 to 25% and even higher in some areas like the the San Francisco bay area so yeah we're absolutely seeing energy storage becoming more popular for several different reasons and I think that will continue to be so.
25:02.76
chrissass
Well I think that ties into where I was going to go next is you know policy and legislation things that go there right? So is policy and legislation or interconnects and all the pieces you need to make this work is that in place today or is there a lot of work to do on that side to get to. Kind of connect rate that you just described of Puerto rico or somewhere else is is a legislation gating or is it an economics gate.
25:28.23
Will White
Most people are doing solar and energy storage for well solar for economic reasons energy storage sometimes for economic reasons but a lot of times for that resilience. You know to have that backup and knowing that you'll have power when the utility is down. As far as legislation. It really is jurisdiction to jurisdiction state by state really so some states are a lot easier to work with when it comes to the the legislation they're putting it through others are more challenging. We are constantly working to get. You know pro-s solar legislation through um on state levels organizations like Cia the solar energy industry association is our our trade organization and they have branches in pretty much all states. Um every state more or less that I've seen has some type of solar energy trade group. Um, I'm in Vermont. We have renewable energy Vermont here which is our our ca affiliate in their affiliates or or trade organizations in every state so they're working hard on the state level to ensure that we have legislation that is makes it easier for solar. Um, we ah see also see other groups. You know fighting against it. So it's a kind of a constant back and forth battle there to get pro-solar legislation through.
26:50.46
chrissass
Have you seen any change in demand in the market due to interest rates going up is that impacting the solar performance that you're seeing right now.
27:01.29
Will White
I haven't seen anything or heard any industry chatter about ah interest rates impacting solar. We did get the inflation reduction act. Um, but this time last year which extended the 30% federal tax credit for both ah residential and. Commercial systems that's legislated through 2032 so we've got 10 years of 30% tax credit stability which has been a huge benefit especially on the larger scale systems so that that's the biggest change that's come around as far as the and incentive. Side and the financial impact.
27:40.23
chrissass
I Always like to have on this program some real-world examples. So maybe you can share um from your experience of where this kind of testing has made an impact and share a story or use case that you've seen and what the outcome was.
27:56.36
Will White
Yeah, so testing and measurement in solar and impact let me think of ah see if I can think of a story here. Um yeah I I can't think of anything specific other than like residential ones that I've worked on or. Like I'll I'll tell you an example of a residential system I had and this is a story from when I was installing solar um did an installation on our residential system. Um, then the customer is complaining of weird things happening um different like lights flickering their ground fault outlets tripping. Um, so we went out did some testing we did some voltage testing and ended up pulling out a power quality meter and doing some power quality tests and we found that the utility coming from ah the voltage coming from the utility was really high and it it turned out that the utility was um. Had taken the substation in their town offline to do some upgrades and they were pushing voltage in from a substation 2 towns over so they were experiencing really high voltage at the customer s house so we were able to identify that. Um you know through that testing measurement process and. We're able to adjust the inverter settings to be able to accommodate that and eventually they fix the substation and the problem went away. But um, you know test measurement can kind of find all kinds of things thermal imaging is a really really great example when I started in solar.
29:22.11
Will White
You know a thermal imaging camera was prohibitively expensive. So we didn't we didn't really have them now you can get thermal imaging cameras I mean we have a pocket thermal imaging camera. That's you know? $1200 you can even get ones that are less expensive that plug into your phone with that information. With that tools. You can see things that you wouldn't be able to see otherwise you know modules will be hotter then um should say a module that is not functioning properly will operate hotter than a module that is functioning properly so it makes it really easy to troubleshoot. Um, sold panels that are having issues with electrical equipment. You can see things in ah say a combiner box where strings of modules come together and are connected and before they go to the inverter with thermal imaging you can go in there. You can see one's circuits that are maybe hot that. Maybe have ah somebody didn't tighten a connector down properly. You can see ones that are cool where maybe a connection in the array broke and that module isn't producing any that string of modules isn't producing any current. Really great ways to to use that equipment to very quickly identify problems in the field.
30:36.77
chrissass
Know I guess when you're talking about that I think of like micro-grids and and all the components out there. So for industrial scale or for utility scale. Um either one of those I'd expect you have some sort of specialist on your team that that would handle that residential.
30:50.63
Will White
Um, and if.
30:54.38
chrissass
And think you'd have someone else managing your your solar that you wouldn't be out there with a you know, camera monitoring your system. Maybe some some owners might be that passionate about it. Um, but are enterprises having people with these skills in-house or as you said in the beginning the installer was an electrician.
31:12.40
Will White
This.
31:12.50
chrissass
Came out that they hired where are these skills coming from and do enterprises realize that these skills are important to them are there are there enough economics to make a job description that they would care about this. Um.
31:24.33
Will White
Yeah, there absolutely is. Um, yeah, it's interesting. The the market is really segmented especially on the larger scale. Um, there are people who are just doing installations and even that's broken down into. People who just install racking people who just put modules on racks and then to the more skilled electricians who are going through and doing a lot of the electrical work. Um, when you get to the um operations and maintenance side. There are companies that have in-house operations and maintenance teams. There are companies that use. Third -party operations and maintenance teams and that could be everywhere from the the small mom and pops that you mentioned up to national companies or even international companies that are providing services um literally around the world. Um, so we've got kind of a mix there. But. They they're definitely recognize the value of skilled labor and one of the really nice things about this older industry is it can be a very lucrative job. Um, you know, ah the pay scale is really good often. The benefits are good as well. Um, when you get into those larger utility scale projects. Um, a lot of them especially when you get above about fifty megawatts have on-site staff that their job 40 hours a week they're on that site maintaining.
32:43.62
Will White
And doing troubleshooting just working on that site year-round. So it's a nice, ah stable job.
32:50.77
chrissass
In that onsite staff goes back to the training and labor question. Um, but we we see there are people to fill those jobs today. Are we seeing vacancies in those kind of roles today.
33:00.91
Will White
There's a lot of openings. Absolutely,, it's It's almost across the board every company that I talk to be it installers Developers operations of maintenance companies even onto the the software and the the construction and manufacturing side. Ah, they're all hiring and so there's opportunities across the board and yeah, like I said it's It's not just people working on the field. There's opera opportunities and other things like sales and marketing and distribution across the board people are hiring in solar.
33:32.92
chrissass
But the the folks that you've come in contact with the kind of role that you're doing are more operational folks is that what you would say who you engage with mostly and today.
33:39.56
Will White
They yeah, they are that I mean that's that's my background. You know I came from the the operations and installation side and after working for that company for a little over 10 years I went to work for solar energy international which is a training provider and that's more. Technical training hands-on training the theory behind solar and what goes into the parts and the pieces and how it all fits together. So yeah, that is who we typically work with since you know in fluke testing measurement equipment's being used by the the technicians in the field. Although they are used in manufacturing as well. So so we see in the application there too.
34:20.47
chrissass
And what's the magnitude of cost of this kind of equipment like what what is a test set composed of and and what magnitude of cost is it? yeah.
34:30.83
Will White
Yeah, it. It varies you know there's there's a wide range so fluke. Ah you know everybody knows fluke equipment is a premium tool. We make high-end equipment. It's very safe. It's third partyy tested. Um, so our tools are going to be a premium cost. Um, but there's also the quality there so we'll see everything from multimeters that can run for a couple hundred dollars you know anywhere from probably 250 up to 7 or $800 when you get into the the more expensive tools like thermal imaging cameras again those can range from. About $1200 on the low end up to $15000 testing ah power quality analyzers are in the you know 10 to $30000 range. So it's a pretty wide spectrum depending on what tool you're doing for what type of test.
35:20.85
chrissass
Now is this generally so developers when they do their initial ppas and in contracts for for utility scale. The perform has already been done So it's it's hard to come in later in ad cost right? because once you built your project Nobody wants to.
35:33.50
Will White
It is.
35:38.99
chrissass
Degregate their returns that they've been committed to based on the performance. So are you seeing these tools as line items then on the project front end or are you trying to have to go back through once they find there's a problem that developers are coming oh shoot we should have kept another twenty thirty thousand dollars for tools to maintain this thing.
35:57.40
Will White
We're not seeing line items actually in the contracts for testing measurement equipment more for general operations and maintenance and to that point there was a. I'll call it a severe underestimation of the money that goes into annual troubleshooting and or annual maintenance and reactive troubleshooting and hopefully we're starting to see those developers and the asset owners come around to realize that. You really do have to set some money aside to maintain these systems in order to ensure that you're going to get that financial. Return. Um, if you don't maintain them and they don't Work. You're not making any money.
36:39.72
chrissass
There is there a back of the napkin kind of calculation you do. So if you're putting in Yeahcise solar array and and farm. Um, you know some percentage of the total number that you go for operations annually or is there kind of.
36:55.33
Will White
Yeah, there there is and and I'm not connected enough to that development front end side of things to know what that number is but there is a typically. It's a price per watt estimate of how much the annual maintenance expense is going to be So yeah, they've they've got ideas about how that.
36:55.42
chrissass
That kind of calculation taking place. Yeah.
37:14.97
Will White
How that's going to play out and I think we are also getting better data on the backend of seeing okay well how much do we actually spend you know, solar's been around long enough at this point where a lot of these developers and asset owners have done enough projects where they can see. Okay. You know that five or ten years of this system actually operating you know, let's look back and see how much did we actually spend versus how much we thought we were going to spend so there's a lot of that analysis going on now too.
37:41.67
chrissass
And then for the people that do these jobs I would suspect that as we get more and more deployed projects that their skill and their value price might go down because they have more and more competitive people that have these skills. So are you do envision these remaining high paying jobs into the future or with Ai with. With lots more alternative choices and people having these skills does does the value of of a troubleshooter or someone you know technician decrease in the future or go up in the future in your experience.
38:10.59
Will White
I can't imagine it would ever go down if anything I think it will go up and we may see and we have seen this over the last couple of years if you look at the employment figures. They've been relatively stable from the. I know 225000 now up to about 263000 people in the industry so labor has stayed relatively stable but deployment has gone up so we're seeing efficiency in labor. Absolutely and you know when I talked about those people who are talking about how. We can leverage technology to reduce the amount of labor. It's not because they want to get rid of people. It's because they want to make it more efficient because we can't hire enough people in the first place. So it's not like we're going to be laying operations of maintenance technicians off because now we have ai. Um, someone's always going to need to be out in the field you know Ai is not going to go out and replace parts and you know swap out filters and inverters and and do troubleshooting in the field at least not ah anytime soon.
39:19.41
chrissass
How does this compare to let's say an Electrician needn't get licensed in a state or whatever are are folks that working with these kind of voltages I mean because you a utility scale is a lot of power running through there. Um, and if you don't know what you're doing. It could be dangerous.
39:28.75
Will White
There is.
39:34.71
chrissass
So are there licenses or is there association certificates that people have or how how are people bringing in people that are qualified and making sure they have the skills.
39:43.10
Will White
Yeah, most states require electrical licensing most if not all so a lot of these technicians if not definitely the majority of them are licensed electricians. And we do see a lot of companies or maybe not a lot but we're seeing companies starting up their own apprenticeship training programs. Um I was out in the field with a company a couple weeks ago where they were having so many problems finding qualified electricians and getting them through the training. That they developed an in-house training program. So the electricians are out in the field. These are the apprenticeship apprentice electricians they work Monday through Thursday they do four 10 s and then on Friday they're in the shop in their classroom. Ah, working with the the journeymen and master electricians to go through the training that the the classroom training that's required all paid by the company. So this is a great way to advance you know skills and gain that license and the nice thing about.
40:33.76
chrissass
Course.
40:47.61
Will White
Having that electrical license is that skill you you can take that license pretty much anywhere. So if solar should for some reason go down. We're not foresee that happening anywhere over the anytime over the next decade you you can still go do traditional electrical work. And so that that license is very valuable. In fact, yeah I I started in solar as ah, doing roof install work and ah I wish I had gone the licensed electrician route. Um that that really does having that license really does. Ah, increase your your interest from other people looking to hire you. It also increases your pay scale pretty significantly.
41:30.97
chrissass
Now you mentioned math right? and I think it's hard to do renewables without math whether you know if you're calculating load or what's going in what kind of math skills. Um, do folks need to be successful in the solar industry.
41:33.38
Will White
Here.
41:45.00
Will White
Um, it's ah you know honestly pretty basic. Um, but but that's a good point. You know that something we really struggled with at um, solar at sei. Um solar energy international where we were doing training because a lot of people haven't done math since. Middle school you know in in some cases and um, basic math is really important. So I developed a class forci. That's free. It's ah the fundamental math for solar. Um, so people can go on the and the se website and take that class. Ah anytime. Um, but basic stuff so converting decimals to ah to percentages converting percentages to decimals basic orders of operation know Pemdas if you want to go back to ah basic algebra. So yeah, orders of operation. Basic just. Addition subtraction multiplication and division. So. It's not We're not doing any like high-end statistics or you know, even yeah, mid-level algebra. It's it's pretty fundamental math but it is important to know it's important to be able to go out in the field and say okay I've got a module that is a certain voltage. I've got 22 of them in a string. You know what's the string voltage going to be you know and then I've got you know multiple strings connected together in a combiner box. What's the outpat output of that combbiner box. It's going to be so so it is fairly fundamental but but critical.
43:13.20
Will White
I Mean you can't you can't do it without knowing some basic math.
43:14.51
chrissass
And are you finding I mean you put a class together. Are you finding that most of the people trying to get into us have the capability and have the fundamental foundation. It's just Rusty or are you teaching people from zero to do math I mean they just don't have any more interested in it when they're in school.
43:27.56
Will White
Yeah, it's totally across the board and we we get people from all types of backgrounds coming into Solar. So I mean there are people who didn't have a great school experience. They might have dropped out of high school. You know they. Probably haven't done math since middle school um all the way through to the opposite end of the spectrum where people who've got you know? Master's degree is coming into the industry. So. It's kind of across the board. But yeah, having those basic basic math skills are are pretty important.
44:00.57
chrissass
And for somebody that wants to get into the industry. You talked about apprenticeships. You talked about some math class online. What what's the expectancy to get into it. So if you're in another career or you're just out of school and you're looking saying hey there's a great future here I Hear there's demand how long does it take to actually.
44:08.50
Will White
Um, who.
44:20.11
chrissass
Get into where you can get a ah reasonably high paying job in energy.
44:25.30
Will White
Yeah I mean I'll I'll tell you the you know what we like people to have and then I'll tell you the reality. Um, so it's It's nice if people have some kind of construction background If you're going into the operation side some kind of construction background. Maybe some carpentry experience some electrical experience. Um, if you're going into the more office types jobs you know some kind of background in marketing sales management. Whatever type of business types skills. You've got um so that's what they like um Napsep the North American board of certified energy practitioners has ah a.
45:01.71
Will White
Associates level certification. It's a credential. Um, where people who are interested in getting to the solar industry can take some courses do a test get a cdential and that shows that hey I I know some about solar I'm you know invested ready to get into the industry. Um, now. The reality is the industry is so desperate for labor. Um, that if you you have a clear criminal background even in a lot of cases if you don't there are companies that can work with that. They're really looking for people who are dependable and who will show up. Every day on time. Um, honestly, that's kind of the bar for labor At this point So it's it's It's very easy to get jobs in solar, especially if you're reliable.
45:47.79
chrissass
All right? So we've covered the human Capital Aspect. We talked about the the tools available as we're getting up towards time. How do we bring this all together. What what is? what is your take of you know hey you need to do testing you. You probably need to do it and set up. You need an operationally. Um, maybe pull this together for audiences as we come to the end of this episode of you know what your take is on the tools out there and who should engage and when.
46:18.33
Will White
Yeah, the the tools are getting better. Um, you know we're getting solar specific tools and that's what we're working on at fluke. So we have released and we'll be releasing more tools specific for the solar industry. So that's coming out. We're pairing that with training. Um, fluke. We got a course approved by namsep for continuing education. So we've got ah tools and techniques for ah testing measurement in the solar industry. We'll be releasing more of those type classes coming out over the next year or 2 so more training there. Um, and then really getting people excited about the industry. You know there's so much opportunity I mean I literally started out as a solar installer and within 10 years I was director of operations managing a team of 50 people. You know spread across the Northeast. So and that didn't have any specific. Training going into solar my my degrees in music business management I mean that you know and I got into the industry and you know was willing to learn and grow and now I'm here I am almost eighteen years later and I've just been doing it so long that I've ah developed all the skill and knowledge that I needed. But yeah, lots of so many opportunities even looking at my career going from working for an installer then into training and now working for a manufacturer of test and measurement equipment. That's not specifically in the solar industry but working for a company. That's that that.
47:49.67
Will White
Serves the solar industry. Um, just so many opportunities out there. It's really and you know I want to stress this.. It's not just installers. You know there's so many jobs in sales and marketing management procurement counting Legal Development. You know, contracts the so many different things in the jobs that you can go into in solar.
48:14.84
chrissass
Well awesome I like the bullish approach the de solar that you're you're happy about the future where it's going to be in the demand demand curves or projected demand curves. Are there? Um well I want to thank you for coming on this episode sharing your experience I think we spent a lot of time you know to. Helping people with career path choices in a bit of time talking about the tools that that would be available and how you might use them. Well thanks for being on the program today for our audience. We hope you've enjoyed this content as much as we did making it if you do don't forget to subscribe follow us on Facebook.
48:37.31
Will White
Um, happy to join you thanks for having me.
48:48.95
chrissass
Share it with your friends and we'll see you again next time Bye Bye.