135 – Harnessing Global Ingenuity to tackle the Energy Transition

We’ve had the hottest July on record. All the indicators suggest that the global environment is hitting its tipping point faster than expected. This means we have less and less time. What can we do to mobilize  global engagement and action towards this complex topic? We ask this and more to Jon Creyts, CEO of RMI, a Think, Do and Scale tank working on global catalysts that drive change. Alongside its research and analytics, it also supports global initiatives that show in moments of challenge, we all can rise to greatness. 

Hosts: Chris Sass and Jeff McAulay 

Additional Reads:
https://rmi.org/

https://rmi.org/the-energy-transition-in-five-charts-and-not-too-many-numbers/ 

https://rmi.org/insight/the-energy-transition-narrative/

https://rmi.org/insight/x-change-electricity/

Chapters

• 5:22 What is RMI and, what is its contribution to global energy systems?
• 6:40 What is the U.S. Clean Energy Buyers Alliance, and why did RMI instrument its creation?
• 9:45 What are some other initiatives that RMI pushes to promote long-term energy innovation?
• 14:02 What draws talent around the globe to work with RMI?
• 17:10 How does the entrepreneurial idea creation process behind RMI’s initiatives work?
• 20:58 What is the global sentiment towards the energy transition space like?
• 23:39 What should the US focus on: empowering global net-zero or pushing local aspirations?
• 26:50 What are the consequences of climate change, and can countries mobilize to prevent it?
• 31:44 What are some of the low-hanging fruits where economics support clean alternatives?
• 41:45 What has RMI forecasted right with its research? What hasn't it?
• 44:32 What is some advice that you would give to young aspirants towards the energy transition?

Transcript

06:15.53 

chrissass 

Welcome to insider' guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass and with me this week is Jeff McAulay as my co-host Jeff I am really excited about this week's show we have RMI on the program. tell me what you think we're going to talk about today and where do we go with this episode. 

06:30.47 

Jeff McAulay 

Well Chris I'm really excited. We've got new CEO John Creyts at Rmi and what's wonderful about this is RMI covers so much ground that I'm not actually sure where this is going to go. And I'm excited because I don't know about that. But I'm sure that wherever we go. We're going to learn a ton on this show. 

06:50.48 

chrissass 

Yeah I find RMI is extremely influential. It really makes a big difference I've been on panels with um I in the past it shows and I really want to hear where they're going so rather than you and I going back and forth. Why don't you bring your guest on Jeff. 

07:04.92 

Jeff McAulay 

Yes, so this ah gentleman John Creyts he's been at RMI for over a decade. He's taken over the leadership as CEO but has a deep and extensive career in the sector. He's an engineer by training. S started off at Lockheed Martin in their famous skunk works program and spent over a decade at Mckinsey including some of their pioneering cost of abatement work. So I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit at the end. But. Let's hear it from the man himself John welcome to the show. 

07:40.52 

Jon Creyts 

Jeff, Chris, delighted to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Really humbled that you hold our institute in such high esteem. But we're doing what we can at this moment so critical for us to solve the energy transition right now. 

07:58.87 

Jeff McAulay 

John catch us up a little bit because I think I keep seeing more and more out of um I so I've I've lost track of all of the different things that you do help us understand how do you frame the mission of um RMI. Where are you guys in terms of the number of employees, number of initiatives. How do you characterize where you are as an organization. 

08:19.16 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, Jeff so 40 rty year old organization right? founded by Amy Lovins you know our mission maintains and is to secure a clean prosperous zero-carbon future for all right? and we've grown over the years right now we're about 700 people. We're working in 62 countries right now and we try to do 2 things exceptionally well one is deep decarbonization of physical assets right? when you think about the electricity grid or you think about the ah industrial sector built environment transportation and mobility right. Um I knows the technoeconomics of how exactly we get to a low carbon system in each of those areas and then we also we have you know, kind of a number of what we call global catalysts which are cross cuttingtting ways that we act on the system to help drive ah drive change in each one of those areas and those are things like. Ah, climate finance right? How do we mobilize capital at scale to get to the 3 to $5000000000000 we're going to need this year and every year right to make this transition happen breakthrough technology right? We we have lots off the shelf that we can get started with right now but we need answers to green steel and and you know, kind of. Long duration storage and many other things out there. So how do we? How do we make sure they're coming to market as quickly as possible climate intelligence right? we need. We have more data than ever. We need to organize that be able to understand where emissions are coming from and animate markets around that and then also we think a lot about you know, kind of leadership. 

09:54.42 

Jon Creyts 

Capacity and how do we make sure that there is you know, kind of not just the leadership vision but the the capability to lead low and middle income communities and countries into the next energy transition without traversing through you know, kind of carbon intensive development. So those are all all things that um Rmi does we wrap it in a. You know, kind of ah, an exciting package. We try to communicate as ah as an independent voice. Um and speak truth to power wherever we can, um, ah we try to be creative in how we engage market systems to really drive the the solutions at scale because we do believe. You know, kind of a well-directed market is the fastest way for us to solve and address this climate crisis. 

10:38.69 

chrissass 

Before we move on to go into the technology and and more of what you're doing you. You just gave very a lot that you guys do there. There's quite a bit and unwrapping what you just said, um maybe help the audience understand so I clearly know who Rmi is I you could tell the respect and the passion we have for our I having you on the show. But. What exactly is our am I and and who are your customers and what do you actually do. 

11:02.53 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, So we're I think you would call us ah a think do and now we've added scale tank to it right? I think do scale is kind of how R I really works in the world and we're an independent nonprofit right? So we're. We're trying to work in the middle of systems between the public and private space including our other Ngo Partners to apply Acupuncture and unstick systems right? to help Capital flow more quickly to help ideas flow more quickly so that we can realize you know kind of. Energy transition at scale and we're always focused on you know, kind of the value that's created in the process and making sure that and not just you know, kind of financial value but equity emerges in the process as well as we migrate to a much more sustainable energy economy. 

11:57.60 

Jeff McAulay 

1 example of this John that I think captures it for me are things like what has become the clean energy buyers alliance. So this is an example where there is a ah challenge. We want more corporates to be able to purchase renewable energy. And there need to be innovative approaches. Can you use that as a thread of where r am I played a role in the the genesis and growth of that as an organization. 

12:25.60 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah I think it's ah a great example that speaks a little bit to how Rmi addresses these types of challenges right? if you look up ten years ago right there was only one one major. Corporation that was able to purchase power directly clean power directly from the market and that was Google right? and they invested heavily in a few power purchase agreements to try and figure out how to do that and they struggled right and Rmi saw this and also heard many other corporations saying we'd like to. We'd like to be able to purchase clean renewables directly help us do that and so um I pulled together. The start of the clean energy buyers alliance and started building up. You know, kind of some of the capacity within the procurement functions of large organizations for how how do you think about? you know, not. Not buying you know, kind of pencils and and you know ship truckloads of equipment but but instead forward strips of energy right? How do you manage the risk around that. How do you think about procuring then you know simultaneously kind of building up of of. Both a developer market alongside ah a buyers market so that we had a conversation that was happening between those that were engaged and then the intermediaries in the system we started you know, kind of holding regular meetings to to bring these groups together and tackle. 

13:51.98 

Jon Creyts 

Real problems like standardized contracts and move from ppas to virtual power power purchase agreements and and innovated you know contracts for differences together and Rmi kind of held the center of this this kind of body until it had the capability to stand up on its own. Ah, you know we did this alongside all the partners involved and now it stands as the largest corporate buyers group in the world right? with over three hundred different companies involved and engaged purchasing you know up to half of the the new clean energy contracted in the United States is being purchased directly from corporations and that stands to you know, kind of a decade of stewardship and experience where Rmi was consistently. Ah you know, kind of in the middle helping build this entity and then ultimately helping spin it out so that it could stand on its own and kind of be fit for purpose. In ah propelling corporations toward their ability to to to engage and and progress you know, kind of the clean energy transition. 

14:57.77 

Jeff McAulay 

John that that is it's amazing. First of all that kind of initiative progression and launch would be the crowning achievement of any organization and it's one of. Ah, seemingly endless list I want to say about ah a dozen initiatives that you're doing and what's so amazing about I'll riff on steepba as an example because it's one that I'm familiar with. It's a balance of listening to the market but its also has this nudging. You're not just. Listening. It's it's you know if you listen to what the customer wants. They'll tell you you know they want a faster horse and you're bringing them a car. There's a nudging of yes we hear what you need today. But here's where you need to go and doing that in a collaborative but directed mechanism and. What strikes me is also the entrepreneurial nature of the organization because it's not just this initiative. It's it's many I would want to give you a chance to talk about some others. Ah that are earlier in their stage of progression that you're proud and excited about and then after that want to also come back to this entrepreneurial nature. That seems to pervade the organization. But what other initiatives are are coming up the year 

16:12.46 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, so one that that started just a couple of years ago literally we launched it right? The week before covid started is our third derivative initiative which is really focused on how do we move? you know breakthrough technologies to scale faster and. The the typical silicon valley venture capital model just doesn't work in in hard tech and clean tech right? We need to have longer. Ah you know, kind of investment timeframes. We need to have ways to de-risk you know physical hardware and the growth in the market and we certainly. We saw in 2008 2009 how we really stubbed our toe when we tried to apply the the silicon valley capital model to clean energy because it led to a lot of disappointment and frankly a lot of ah destruction of value in the process. But we know that that it as we kind of meet. Challenge right? now we can move capital faster and there are strategic ah ways to do so so Rmi is built you know similar to to um siba we've built an ecosystem approach that incorporates yes venture capital um, and we've got about 20 different venture capital. Firms that we're working with but also other forms of capital and project based finance and equity along the way we've we've built a community of corporations right? that are aggressive in their climate goals and are looking for new technologies and interested in being ah you know. 

17:46.14 

Jon Creyts 

Coaches and first customers but also investors and acquirers of these businesses right? We've built then the world's largest network of startups right? and have have got to a point where we're producing and pulling in 15 to 25 new startups every quarter. Um. That are feeding into this system and kind of helping to move them faster through the system. So that instead of it being a random walk of twelve or fifteen years for a successful company and there aren't many of those right to make it through that we can kind of put a tractor beam on the the likely winners or winning categories. And pull them through in 18 years from you know, kind of prototype and first customer all the way through to market scalability and we're super excited about the different technologies that we're using. Um, we've or that we're we're kind of engaged with. And we've taken a very thesis-driven approach as well where we're taking individual technologies like direct air capture and saying okay, what do we need to do to move from. You know, kind of $600 per ton ah down to $100 per ton and what are the different categories of solutions that we can. Invision meeting at scale and accelerating entrepreneurs in those areas alongside others like grantham like um, ah you know, kind of ah some of the key early stage investors that are are excited about um you know promoting these types of. 

19:15.44 

Jon Creyts 

Critical climate solutions and getting them to scale quickly. You. 

19:19.32 

chrissass 

Ah, you, you mentioned all kinds of projects in in this kind of hyper speed in order to do that. You have to attract some amazing talent because your your thesis is being made by somebody and executed by somebody to help them. Where are you finding the kind of talent I mean you said you had 700 folks in your organization. Um, but this is different what you're talking about if I'm going a hyper speed and make a bet on ah, a new and emerging technology where is this talent coming from and what's different between some of the problem programs. Maybe the government's running for longer term funding or things they're doing in Colorado where you are in golden there. Um, how are you different than some of these other programs. Yeah. 

19:56.29 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah I you know I do have to go back to our heritage right? We are founded by Amy Lovins who is just ah, an amazing visionary and he's he's a bit of the professor's professor right? And for for forty five fifty years he's been going around the world. Ah, you know as a bit of a profit. And spreading the message writing amazing books not just reinventing fire but you know natural capital capitalism ah you know, winning the oil endgame etc and when when you know, kind of the engineers and the architects and the entrepreneurs and the business leaders and the scientists think about you know, kind of. And and are early in their exploration of the the energy transition and how they fit into it. They always come across amery and every every person at Rmi Virtually to a t has their amery story right of when they were first exposed to him. And that magnetism here you know and alongside the amazing work that we're doing out there on a day-to-day basis really has become a huge attractor and created a gravitational pole for r I that I I have to see ah say I'm just humbled to experience. Um, you know. For for our summer associate position here a year ago. We had 3100 applications for 35 positions right? which was just absolutely staggering mind blowing. You know when you think about that. Um, we're we're fortunate to be in the position that we are but at the same moment you know i'm. 

21:28.67 

Jon Creyts 

I'm excited to see this level of talent eat whether they're inside arm I or beyond um I focused on this issue right now because we need it. It is a we're in a planetary emergency right now and the fact that the best minds in the world are focused on energy should be invigorating exciting for us all. And that's where you know, kind of hope and optimism and at at Rmi we we think about applied hope right? We think about it's not enough to be hopeful that we really have to work to will into existence that world that we so desperately want to need and that that in the process of doing so together we actually create the world being. Worth being hopeful for right that that is our am I that's what attracts people to us. But that's also the exciting you know solution for us as a planet that we all have to help realize act but activate and you know, kind of mobilize at this at this critical moment. 

22:23.24 

Jeff McAulay 

I love that applied hope I'm going to use that that's very very practical and and pragmatic but also an optimistic take and going to keep coming back to this theme of of balance. So you're attracting deep technical expertise but also have an awareness of the financial side. You mentioned. Technoeconomic analysis and it's miraculous to think of an organization that can launch something like Siva which is very corporate and procurement focused but then turn around and also launch something like third derivative which is much earlier state different type of capital entrepreneurial. Can you tell me. Ah, little bit more about the process internally that fosters so many ideas but doesn't get pulled apart by trying to chase too many at the same time. 

23:12.33 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, um, this is something you're hitting on both the magic and the challenge that I have as a Ceo right? um because ah Rmi we have inherently curious people on staff right? and we try to. 

23:16.54 

Jeff McAulay 

Is it. 

23:27.75 

Jon Creyts 

Support and create entrepreneurial room for them to investigate ideas and take them further at the same time you know as we grow if we have too many people moving in different directions. You wind up not being able to create the impact at scale that's really required and and. This moment right? where we are right now requires impact at scale and so I've I've really challenged our team on how do we ensure that there is both that balance of entrepreneurialism and focus and what we've come up with in over the last six months is is really. 19 big areas that we as an institute feel like we can push the global dialogue on we can push global markets on and have a substantial impact in the next three years and they range from from things like you know, kind of electrifying 2 and 3 wheelers in the global south and how do we get. Them to be commonplace across more and more markets because the economic cases there. Ah you know, but the supply chains and the policies need to be build up to help them. You know compete at scale through to you know, kind of more traditional areas like. 0 met 0 buildings and how exactly we accelerate some of the policies in Target targeted areas like ah um, you know, kind of the United States and and Europe to things like um, you know, kind of making sure that ira the inflation reduction act. 

24:57.22 

Jon Creyts 

Is as successful as possible because now that the United States has taken the position and and really put some political heft behind it. It has to be successful right? We have to see the projects emerge and and the showcases emerge that convince. Capital around the world that this is the smart bet right? that this is the wave of the the future and so Rmi is involved and engaged in each of those and we have kind of taken the organization and said be entrepreneurial within these specific areas and in the next three years let's make sure we get each of them to a tipping point. We have clearly defined. Ah you know as part of how it is. We kind of marry that creativity with discipline and that's that's always a challenge for for large organizations and I you know I think I have to as much as I like to think of arm eyes a feisty you know, kind of ah. Small organization. We are we are officially in the big ngo space right now or a bingo most recently I've heard somebody call us that and and I have to I have to own up to our our size and heftier and recognize though but but that is the challenge for us. It is about you know balance. But being able to direct and and deliver right. 

26:14.31 

chrissass 

Are you noticing changes. So I just literally came back from Europe moved back to the us and in Europe ah renewable energy is not so much a fad is something that's been going on for some period of time and. Culturally, it's very different once it get back home right? there. There's there's not the same love. There's some that are disbelievers and things like that have you seen? ah a pivot point or a change in the last couple of years that that people are now serious about climate change and that the energy market changing I mean we see the government getting behind it. But are you seeing it across the board. 

26:45.75 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah I I really do you know I travel the world I literally just circumnavigated the world visiting all different economies around the world and I I do think the United States is a bit of a it's a. It's a separate case right? as we think about where we are relative to where the rest of the world is um because we're so mired in politics around climate change and if we stop talking about climate change in the United States and we start talking about the energy transition I think you're seeing a lot more hope and support there right? You're seeing. Ah, you know, kind of in Georgia massive ah construction of new battery facilities new solar facilities New Ev Facilities you're seeing Houston embrace hydrogen at scale right? You're seeing Southern California you know kind of not just move within ah, kind of the space of. Ah, constraints and thinking about emissions but now starting to think about green shipping corridors and and you know ah having um, ah carbon capture and storage equipped cement facilities and things like that that are changing the dialogue and making this both. Not not necessarily about climate but about you know, kind of industry about global competitiveness about um, you know, kind of places again where the United States can can be a leader and that's exciting and it's it is shifting ah the dialogue so long as we stay ah away from. 

28:18.91 

Jon Creyts 

The the politically charged rubric around climate change and I'm not I'm not saying we shouldn't be aware of climate change. We've just you know, finished the hottest July on record probably the hottest July we have seen since our species existed on the planet right? and that should give us all pause but in the United States right ah this particular ah conversation needs to be about jobs. It needs to be about resiliency. It needs to be about you know, kind of leading and developing new markets and all of those are true for the energy transition right now. 

28:53.37 

Jeff McAulay 

John you've outlined a global mission but I want to bring up another tension here which is you've also talked about the ira us as a global leader building jobs at home. So how much do you think about your mission as that global helping. Each country around the world develop versus a more us-centric America as a leader in the sector and do you find that as attention. 

29:23.99 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, we so one we certainly see ourselves as a global institution right? Not beholden to international politics I myself spent you know the better part of a decade working with China on their energy transition. Um, we. Working alongside the senior leaders from 2012 to 2016 in particular helping to ah shift dramatically the aspirations around the thirteenth five -year plan which was when china you know, kind of shifted from from coal dramatically toward renewables. We're doing the same thing in india right now, right? when we think about partnering with senior. Ah, ah, ministries there? Um, ah, niti iyad the planning commission we work very closely with we work closely with other ministries and housing and development alongside many of the leading companies um to help. Enable and support the transition I was just in indonesia right meeting with senior ministers there helping them work through the challenges of you know, kind of having an overbuilt coal fleet and needing to transition to lower costs renewables and how that happens thinking about you know, kind of the advent of electric vehicles and how to build up supply chains there. These are all things that rmi engages on and we do so with an eye towards supporting the world right? We're we're in it for the planet right? We're thinking about how do we make sure that we as a species don't destroy ourselves here right? that we. 

30:51.22 

Jon Creyts 

Ensure that this transition provides the maximum benefit for everyone and and I do you know in right now when I look at where we are in the energy transition I am more and more confident that we're going to get to net 0 right? We're going to get to net zero for half the planet by 2050 but for half the planet right now there is not a pathway to net zero and if we don't all get to net zero by 2050. We all lose. So so we have to redouble and figure out financial flows to the global south. We have to figure out ways to move technology faster. We have to figure out ways to share right in. In the overall resource resources that we have right now as we create more abundance going forward even if we've hit bottlenecks and global supply chains etc. And that's that's where r am I again, acting as that independent ngo can really step in and. With our technoeconomic expertise with our you know, kind of thinking and doing ah duality can help make things happen. They really showcase what good collaboration looks like what solutions are possible. How to get them to scale quickly. That's what my organization tries to do. 

32:05.90 

Jeff McAulay 

It's a really unifying message and it's really refreshing to hear you articulate that we're all in this together right? and you got the applied hope and we've all got a piece of the puzzle. That's ah, a really inspiring message. You also mentioned some concerning. Notes and and we were talking about tipping points. So I'd love to hear from you what you're most concerned about you mentioned the hottest July on record we're seeing record North Atlantic Sea Surface temperatures so tell us a little bit about what the what you're concerned about and then. Want to also let you balance that out with your applied hope message. What are the things that you're most excited about on the optimistic side. So. 

32:50.13 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah I you know I think what should be disconcerting for everyone hottest July right? All the different warning signs that we're seeing in current flows ah in glacial melts in methane releases from northern latitudes etc that all suggest. We're hitting tipping points faster and earlier than we would have expected in the global environment which means we've got less and less time right? The the world meteorological organization just upgraded a month or two ago its estimate that you know, kind of within the next five years there's a twothirds chance. That one of those 5 years will be at or above one and a half degrees Celsius increase even if temporarily and so that's as we're we're knocking on the door right now and we need to mobilize at scale and that right now there's a there is a fractured politics globally right? that is. Challenging our ability to move at scale and the more that that China is isolated right? The more that that we are not. You know, kind of engaging holistically against this problem as 1 planet the more challenges we have right? Um, we we need to agree in the end that. Ah, you know solving a um, a problem as complex as this requires ah unity and purpose and and that is ah you know is hasn't yet arrived and so that that I would say is a big challenge when I think about what's hopeful right? As a. 

34:22.77 

Jon Creyts 

As an institute that that thinks a lot about the economics and markets. We're in a position right now where solar and wind right? are on exponential declines. They have been growing cheaper and cheaper. You know year by year and they're now cheaper than ah. Ah, cheaper for 95% of the people on the planet as the next new form of energy right? They'll be cheaper for a hundred percent of the people on the planet very soon and shortly thereafter they'll be cheaper as the marginal the total cost of renewables will be cheaper than the marginal cost of new of oil or of gas or. Coal-fired generation on most of the planet right? That's the economics are in our favor that is an amazing tailwind at our backs. Same thing is happening. You know, kind of with when we think about batteries and electric vehicles growing exponentially ah or very early stage but hydrogen electroizers. Starting to move exponentially at scale right? look at heat pumps moving. You know, kind of nonlinearly need to get them faster. Certainly you know Europe is helping lead the charge there but the new models are coming in with staggering efficiencies that start to be retrofittable in many cases you know with. Much shorter paybacks than we've ever had in the past. So the economic system is shifting um in dramatic ways. But but we've got to break habits right? And it's tough to break habits. It's tough when we're in our. 

35:52.48 

Jon Creyts 

You know the convenience of our life and we know what it means to engage with energy in a certain way at the pump or paying a utility Bill. We don't think about change and we don't necessarily want to add that to all the other things that we need to do so we need to make it as easy as possible and again, that's what what Rmi is working to do is to make these choices. Not really choices at all, but just the natural way of doing things because of the favorable economics because of the better world. They lead to right? and and I think we've all got to recognize that that it's not just better for the environment to drive an electric vehicle. They're. They're actually more fun right? They perform better and yeah, and in all different ways. You don't have to you know, kind of depend on ah ah, going to a dirty gas station or or a host of other things. You know an electric stove. Has very precise ability to boil water for 10 minutes and then turn itself off um you know and as we we think about things like that we can expect that the innovation is going to keep propelling us toward not just the answer but toward better answers. 

36:58.47 

chrissass 

I Think what? what you said that resonates with me is the economics right? So as an American and I look at the world as as free market and economic right? and you know if you look at solar I think even though Corporates had. 

37:05.53 

Jon Creyts 

Oh. 

37:16.90 

chrissass 

Sustainability goals long before it got so popular. It wasn't till behind the meter really saved you money that it really took off and if I look at Mainstream I Think when it's more cost- effective to have an electric car because your total cost of ownership may be less. Um, yeah, that makes sense and people start looking at that right? I think the economics drive a lot of behavior to Change. So I tend to agree with that and then you know I guess that aligns with what you were talking about helping jump start companies that had technology cycles so that there are options at scale in the Market. Um, heat pumps housing things are really inefficient that make a big hit for energy. Those are things that that I like to see Um, what's a pet project that you've seen or you see in the near Horizon that you're excited about that. Maybe we don't all know about or maybe we do know about it. But you're you're really bullish about. 

38:04.38 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah I I mean Chris if we go back to this idea that economics win the day in the end right? and if we can just change things quick enough. 1 of the one of the real areas of of potential right now that that we're focused on is 2 and 3 wheeler electrification right um. Because it's about a quarter the cost overall per kilometer per passenger kilometer to drive an electrified 2 or three wheeler than it is to drive ah an internal combustion engine one and and you get all the benefits that these. These vehicles are used in urban environments and you get rid of the particulate and air pollution locally and and all sorts of other things but but the supply chains aren't built up. Um and the awareness isn't there and so when we think about and and you know when we think about electrification of vehicles too. It's It's happened very much with the tesla top-down model right? where it was always the the people who can afford it the most were the first the first users. But in this case, it's actually the people who can the people who are going to benefit the most starts from the bottom of the pyramid upward and so we've been working in India. To help drive and seed a 2 and 3 Wheeler market at scale there. Um, we created a program called shunya which means 0 in sanskrit. Um and have been working alongside the government and now about one ah hundred and fifty different companies ranging from. 

39:31.58 

Jon Creyts 

You know, rideshare companies like uber and ola through to to delivery companies like Amazon or flipcart that are working alongside us to create urban deliveries. Um and make sure that that as a high use segment whether it be a package or a person. In urban cores in India they're being delivered by 0 carbon resources last year when we launched the program our first year we had 150000000 carbon deliveries right? that are now growing the the program has ah just been. You know, kind of launched its second year with ah a big brand video and it's going out to beyond a few major cities in India out more broadly across each of the states and we see that as a model that isn't just for India but can easily move into Southeast Asia can easily move into sub-saharan Africa and so we're working with and. And alongside governments and and leading companies in Nigeria you know, kind of in Indonesia and Vietnam in you know, kind of the rapidly emerging areas so that we not only seed the the idea of low carbon transportation. But we also you know one of the elegant. Elements of this solution is that you can build small supply chains here that allow for local industrialization in the process and and that then you know, kind of has the virtuous cycle of of creating diversified supply chains here globally um for manufacturing and brings more green jobs to more of the world. 

41:07.27 

Jon Creyts 

For more benefit that's that's you know, kind of 1 exciting area that that um, ah that I'd love to share you know I can go into on the the Iris side right? But coming back to the United States here we're we're tracking about three quarters of a trillion dollars worth of. Investments between the Texas gulf coast and Southern California of new projects that are coming into being right now and we're already working with 22 of them specifically on things like green ammonia plants on. Ah, building out electrified freight corridors and drainage systems on sustainable aviation fuel at airports right? and we're seeing you know, kind of large scale developments and helping sit between the corporate ah owners the investors. The the. City and town councils. The community-based organizations and helping move that wheel a little bit faster so that each of these projects gets to final investment decision and puts real money down to really start building and already we're seeing that construction happen. So. You know, kind of moving from 2 disparate parts of the world. We're we're both participating in and seeing these types of large scale shifts and that that for me is exciting. It's exciting to think about um Rmi's role in it but even more exciting to see the real. 

42:32.35 

Jon Creyts 

To see the real physical change happen. 

42:35.95 

Jeff McAulay 

John it's hard to imagine somebody more seamlessly going from 2 wo-wheeled electric mobility in Indonesia to a sustainable aviation fuel to moving away from coal in China and you you cover it so effortlessly. We have to talk about your background. How did you get here that you can so easily cover really global multi-sector multi-asset technoeconomic topics tell us a little bit about your formative experiences whether that's mckinsey or early Rmi. That helped get you to this position. 

43:18.82 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, um I so I was I'm one of 8 kids right? and my father my father was an engineer. My mother was an artist but my father was in the energy industry. So I kind of had a ah jump up on it very early on even if he was. Building coal plants and nuclear plants and thinking about those types of things. It was part of my you know, kind of my early consciousness but it really you know I I took on the engineering mantle I learned how things worked technically um you know my time at the skunk works was. Phenomenal that you referenced right being able to see what technology could do um you know I was using 3 d printers in 20 in 1992 right to build prototype aircraft and just having that window and what exactly you could do was was quite extraordinary but I did. You know I I decided early on that I really wanted to to focus on climate change and that that that was a critical issue I did my graduate work at Berkeley on on circularity and I I joined Mckinsey really thinking that I was going to be there for a couple years get the equivalent of an Mba after I finished my ph d because I just couldn't see myself going to school any longer. Um and I wound up staying there for a dozen years because there was such a rich opportunity to engage business and leadership on these issues and I I didn't realize that. 

44:48.40 

Jon Creyts 

You know, rather than building my own consultancy I could essentially build the climate change practice within Mckinsey and worked alongside many super talented people to do so um, ah, you know and yes did the original Mckinsey cost curve. Um, which was a ah helpful framing I think at the very right moment. When we were all debating Waxman Marquee here in the United States and other things that helped frame the issue of where exactly if you have to take carbon out of the economy. Where do you look and how much can you get at what cost and that that kind of propelled my thinking a lot about where and how I wanted to impact. And I had I had met amery back in 9091 I had a fantastic advisor in in my undergraduate a gentleman named Clark Bullard who's just amazing and he he said Amy's coming to campus. You've got to hear him and. And he was right right? Amy has a different way of thinking about things and he rearranged my mental furniture of of what's possible right? Um, and and how exactly you drive change in the world and so when I finally you know, kind of recognized that I really wanted to to devote all of my time to climate change. Rather than all the different things that a management consultant has to responsibility for I reunited with Amy and since then we've been trying to build the institute that can respond to this moment right? and and really help drive what I know best right? The techno-economic side. 

46:18.17 

Jon Creyts 

At Scale globally and Provide. You know, not just the passion but the the detailed insights and and information the the change models the the the capacity to dialogue you know, kind of critically and align people against objective outcomes. That are am I You know so well embodies. 

46:39.25 

Jeff McAulay 

When you think about the cost of abatement curves. We're coming up on 20 years maybe I mean what pretty close to that right in terms of when it first came out okay, 50 Yeah. 

46:49.45 

Jon Creyts 

2007 was kind of yeah so it's but but you're right? Yeah, no, it's we're 1617 years right so it's it's um, it's been a while. 

46:59.99 

Jeff McAulay 

So what do you think when you look back on that work today. Do you feel I feel like it's held up pretty well are we are we inching a log or are we moving the axes. What do you think when you look back on that original work. Okay. 

47:13.68 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, so you know there's a certain amount of of regret right? when I look at it because we we had the the roadmap then that could have averted some of the warming some of the catastrophes some of the the issues that we're seeing now and. Um, if only right if only we had been able to galvanize and get people to act on it. It would have been much easier. Um, what we're facing right? now you know there were things about the cost curve that were spot on right? and we've we've done a better job capturing energy efficiency for instance than most people realize. Um, Ah, we still have plenty to go. You know it's ah it's a renewable resource in itself that there's every time you you capture some you realize there's much more there. Um, but but there were other areas that. You know, frankly we got wrong. We we expected cellulosic to be able to move at scale much faster than it did right? and ah it got mired and I we have not hit you know, kind of the scale and capacity on that front on the other hand other things that we got wrong to The. The positive side right? We mckinsey was quite conventional in its view on solar electric electrification of vehicles wind. You know, kind of the limits have far been Exceeded. Um and and so while those are helpful calibration points in history I think. 

48:42.85 

Jon Creyts 

We have to recognize that time and time again you know, kind of most markets follow and escar most markets exponentiate and we you know again back to what's giving me hope right now we're in that exponential moment we are seeing the economics tip. We're seeing. You know we're feeling the supply chain constraints because the demand is so high. Um, and we're seeing ah you know, kind of the potential solutions. Emerge forward and those should be signs of hope for all of us. Ah, you know because in in moments of great challenge. I believe fundamentally that we all can rise to greatness and that is what's going to solve the climate crisis. You know whether it be in the global north the global south whether it be in in China in the United States in sub-Saharan Africa you know we are. We're facing it right now. And yes, we can harness ingenuity to get there right? especially because we know we know so much about what the toolkit is to do so. 

49:46.12 

chrissass 

So you mentioned the challenge you talk about an optimistic picture perhaps that this can can be achieved now if I were a 20 something looking to make my mark on the world and you talked about 32 openings and thousands of folks applying so there seems to be. Pent up demand for young folks that want to be in this game. What's your advice for early career folks and how they make an impact over their career if they're just starting out now. 

50:14.60 

Jon Creyts 

Yeah, um, there is so much opportunity, right? and I I look at it from ah you know from a career perspective. There is not an industry or an issue that is more rewarding and. More in demand more in need right now than how exactly we manage this energy transition. Um, it is you know when you look at the sheer size of it. Um, we have never as ah as a species gone through the level of economic opportunity the level Of. Ah, reconstruction. You know that we're going to go through and so as an early stage career person I would see this as unlimited opportunity, right? So then then the question is you know, kind of ah how do I engage with it and I I Firmly believe That. Experience Informs right? It informs success it informs passion it and informs direction. Um, and so less important than finding the perfect place is finding a place to step in and contribute and as you do you're going to find and learn more and more about you. More and more about the system more and more about where your unique capability and capacity fits within and can drive change and that each one of us has that unique role to play somewhere in the system and it is about locating and finding that. Ah you know, kind of um in your own time but. 

51:46.67 

Jon Creyts 

Don't take too long at it because you know we've got a planet that's on fire right now. 

51:52.50 

Jeff McAulay 

John this has been an amazing conversation I really appreciate your message of applied hope we're not ignoring the signals around us but fundamentally rejecting dumerism. And taking a unified view on a global basis. That's multisectoral that's collaborative between the technical and the finance and the corporate and really weaving that all together. Ah I can't imagine a better guide. For us on that journey and we're so grateful that you spent the time with us today. Ah, really appreciate you joining us in this conversation. 

52:34.91 

Jon Creyts 

Thank you, Jeff thank, you Chris it's been a delight. Thank you for the great work that you do helping get the messages out. They're helping engage in critical dialogue with everyone as we as we rise to this moment. Um. You have a critical role to play and we're happy to support and appreciate the partnership. Thanks so much. 

52:53.16 

chrissass 

Thank you, John. For our audience We hope you've enjoyed this content as much as we have. It's been an amazing journey. The conversation's been fun. if you like this content and want to hear more please subscribe, follow us, find us on Youtube find us wherever you get your podcasts and we're going to see you again next week bye bye.