132 - The Affordable Rooftop Solar Movement

Did you know that it under the right circumstances, it can cost less than 1.5$/W to install residential solar in Europe! Join us as we sit down to chat with Andreas Thorsheim, Founder and CEO of Otovo, A Norway based one-stop shop for consumers in Europe wanting to install solar and batteries in their homes. We learn about what Europe did right in the last couple of years with building decentralized solar, and more importantly where it's playing catch-up to the North American market. 

Hosts: Chris Sass and Jeff McAuley

Additional Reads:

Otovo - https://www.otovo.com/

https://techround.co.uk/interviews/andreas-thorsheim-otovo/

https://www.renewableenergyinstaller.co.uk/2023/06/increased-demand-for-solar-installations/

https://www.ft.com/content/2f876e67-8aa1-4776-a783-bcf5d5ea76eb

Chapters

• 2:05 What does European Solar Markets look like in a post FiT world?
• 6:06 What are the supply side constraints for the EU on solar?
• 8:20 What is the life cycle for a customer to install solar on his/her rooftop?
• 9:22 Where is the EU sourcing its workforce from to deploy residential solar?
• 13:42 How are most residential solar systems in Europe financed?
• 15:57 Is solar a sensible option for multi-tenant apartments in Europe?
• 18:48 How are small solar owners in the EU protected in the volatile energy markets?
• 21:50 Do solar system owners in the EU find battery storage attractive?
• 27:51 How does the EU see building regulations as enablers for solar inclusion?
• 30:06 What happens to a residential solar panel in the EU as it nears the end of its lifespan?
• 33:50 Is the duck curve a problem for EU grids?
• 37:05 What can the EU can learn from America on small-scale solar?

Transcript

 06:16.35 

chrissass 

Welcome to insider' guide to energy. This is your host Chris Sass, and with me as co-host Jeff Mcauley Jeff welcome back to the program. I'm excited about today's episode. I'm super excited to be here today because we're going to talk solar energy and you and I spend a lot of time talking solar energy. 

06:26.30 

Jeff McAulay 

Excited to be here. Chris. 

06:36.18 

chrissass 

Um, what are you hoping to get out of the show today. What do? what do you want to cover today. 

06:40.90 

Jeff McAulay 

Well I spend most of my time in US markets. So I'm really excited to get into more of a European perspective and perhaps a laboratory for all of the different ways that solar can be deployed. 

06:54.48 

chrissass 

Well great. Let's go ahead and bring on our guest. Our guest is Andreas Thorsheim, Andreas Welcome to the program. It's our pleasure. 

07:00.36 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Thank you for having me. 

07:05.77 

chrissass 

Starting off, what I generally like to do is ask our guests to give a little background of who you are and what it is. You do so the audience could catch up to speed where Jeff and I are. 

07:14.20 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Yes, so I'm Andreas I'm a founder and Ceo of Otovo we're a European marketplace for solar and battery installations. We're active in 13 European markets providing um, solar and battery installations for homeowners. Um, and we've been added for 7 years prior to that I worked in the tech and media industry. 

07:41.25 

Jeff McAulay 

It's wonderful and Andreas. Can you update me and I'm sure a lot of the audience I'm out of date on my European solar market. So ah, maybe even 10 years out of date back when it was largely regulatory and feed-in tariff driven. So I gather that we are in a post-fit world tell us about what that world looks like. 

08:03.65 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Yeah, so like it looks like you watched the last episode in 2010 and in the heady days when feed in tariffs were making people oversize their solar systems and feed a lot of solar energy back into the grid. Um, that was ah. Ah, guess great news for the consumers who jumped on the bandwagon back then it was also great news for the manufacturers who were already and and could sort of ah build capacity addressing demand in in Spain and Germany. But that was a very very expensive program for european governments and things that are expensive tend to expire quite quickly and that led to a big bust in in several of the european markets and then we hibernated for a few years um years that I think the us spent much better. Creating the solar cities and teslas the sun runs the sonovas that dominate the us market now. Um, and we were slumbering with the exception of a few markets. There wasn't a lot of development in the rezi side in in Europe but of course with gradually increasing energy prices with. Ever falling cost of equipment. The the business case keeps improving and particularly last year with the energy crisis following the Ukraine war that that has really accelerated so now Europe is a forty Gigawatt solar market 

09:30.56 

Andreas Thorsheim 

And the largest category within that is residential solar. Um and this is is widespread that we're catching up to and to to make up for the lost ground to compared to the Us. 

09:41.78 

chrissass 

You mentioned in our pre-convers conversation that the the market was good but it it seemed like prices were a bit high for solar and you're up right now is that still the case is that you know a result of the war and there was demand increase or why did prices go a little bit higher in Europe. 

10:02.32 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Um, so well. First of all Europe is probably putting the solar panels up at half the price of what you're used to in in Europe so where're we're kind of in this centigrade fahrenheit almost difference in but but like in in in. Ah, in in in dollar terms. You probably get your solar pounds up in Europe for ah for a dollar 50 per watt which is spectacularly low compared to to what you're used to in the us. Ah, but even that is is higher than we saw a year ago. Um, 2022 was a year of um extreme strain on the supply chains equipment was hard to come by and the labor was in short supply and that pressured prices upwards and 2022 was a year of of um really a reversal of the cost declines that we've been seeing over the last decade um luckily going into this year that's coming down again. Um equipment prices are back to where they were prior to the invasion of Ukraine and labor costs are half the way down and will probably even even out where where they were before the crisis during this autumn. So. Um, we've seen ah a huge bump in in the european cost and that the came as a response to extreme demand and the supply that couldn't keep up. 

11:25.97 

chrissass 

And then just follow up on that 1 thing that I've seen in the us is. There's been some issues with polysillicon holding orders up in customs and not getting into the us supply chain is europe experiencing something similar is that a us phenomenon. 

11:43.80 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Now That's a us Phenomenon Europe is not taking as hard as stands towards Chinese imports and as as the us. So ah, um, right now I think there's nothing holding the European back European Market back in terms of ah of what it can um And. Ah, what it can import. 

12:03.24 

Jeff McAulay 

Wow a dollar 50 a watt that's installed. 

12:11.51 

Andreas Thorsheim 

That's installed yes and in in some market like you know in in Poland you're going to be below a dollar. So um and that's an impressive mark for residential and and keep in mind like Poland is this ah mediums sized european country population 40000000 um 

12:17.57 

Jeff McAulay 

For residential. 

12:28.72 

Andreas Thorsheim 

They did 400000 installations rei last year ah so ah, pretty strong, pretty strong market and they're the most efficient guys on the planet at least known known to me. There's no, there's no permitting you just smack the panels up on the roof. They put four hundred thousands of them up and the grid is still standing um and and it's kind of moderately subsidized and it's a country that's super super motivated to get off coal power. And that pollutes their cities and to get off the import of russian gas. That's a security threat for them. So and they've been really eager to get lots of solar panels up there and it shows that when you get to volumes you can really get the cost down and and these are efficient serious people who can put that solar. Panel up on your roof and and do that that less than a dollar per wats installed so it it kind of a lab for the future you know and and and I think ah it puts a lot of burden or proof on on regulators elsewhere due to show why. You need to to be so careful as you tend to be in in other countries. 

13:41.46 

Jeff McAulay 

That's Phenomenal. It's really amazing I mean for context and we're going to get into this with with some other guests. But that's 50% of the cost I'm seeing on a representative residential system in the Us. And I'm guessing if there's no Permitting. You're also able to do that faster from lead to close so give us an estimate of the the timeline if you don't have interconnection I Imagine that's much faster but how long does it take from a customer you know signing a contract to when they can have. Electricity flowing in their house. 

14:13.82 

Andreas Thorsheim 

If you were a customer of otovo in Poland and we were on the phone today. we' promise you would install it before the end of the month and we're recording this on July eleventh so you know three weeks we'd absolutely guarantee that that's up and usually it'll take two weeks it's just just getting the logistics right between warehouse and and the installer teams. But it's like solar ah residential should be a matter of days. 

14:41.36 

chrissass 

So but that leads me to wonder about staffing to where do you find all these solar installers and as the growth accelerates. So as we get more and more people doing solar where where's the workforce coming to do this installation. 

14:58.93 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Well um, solar installer community and I think it's probably made up of tens of thousands of small and medium-sized businesses across Europe who are electricians who are licensed solar installers and. They're incredibly resourceful. They're typically a father and son shop or or you know one one strong guy and and his 4 bands. Um, and these people when they see that there's increased demand they will call up for former colleagues from the construction industry or they'll. Um, you know they they'll hear out the opportunity of merging with ah someone who's a carpenter and and and they'll be recruiting here and there ah 5 six seven guys and and that sort of adds a lot of capacity over time and and now with more recessionary fares. You're seeing the construction industries demanding less labor. Those electricians and those workers are getting freed up and are available for the for the energy transition. So um, you can get short bouts of shortage like we saw in the winter and spring of 2022 when you know the demand for solar was up 2 to 3 x from where it was the year before in many countries. Of course you can't double or triple your workforce in a matter of months but in a matter of 2 or three quarters of course you can you can call up your cousin from the countryside. You can you can see new teams with your your veteran and and and trained guys and bring in apprentices and and and and you guys off the street and over a few months 

16:32.60 

Andreas Thorsheim 

You know these people will become also seasoned installers. So I'm really really optimistic about the ability to get enough people into the solar industry I know it's something that the solar energy energy associations both in in you and the us and Europe are. Um, questioning. but but I'm thinking as long as the demand's there and we have a you know working pricing system. Um, there is there's the opportunity to pay these people decent wages ah to to stay safe on the roof. Um. Because there's a lot of room freed up by this ever cheaper equipment every every time the the equipment falls by ten cents that's five cents for the consumer and five cents for the installer to to recruit more people. 

17:18.61 

Jeff McAulay 

This is really exciting so again, a buck 50 or less a wad installed pre-subsidy that's not baking in other rebates or things like that I'm still I'm still getting my head around it. 

17:30.90 

Andreas Thorsheim 

No know it's yeah, no one in the Us believes us but I mean the panel the the panels the panels and the inverters and you know on the global markets. Yeah, they'll cost it. You. 

17:38.67 

Jeff McAulay 

But and and ah. 

17:48.25 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Fifty cents per watt. So how much do you need and how many hours can you can you waste putting the panels up to me that's a question and and it's the reason we created a tobo is said okay, let's avoid the roundt trips while selling this. And let's only talk to people who want to want to talk to us. Let's have software design the systems and give people a quote before they require a person to drive through their homes that removes a lot of of waste and ah and and then you want functioning markets without too much permitting. In which the installers can be quite certain to have a project per day or more so that they are fully utilized and and not never idling and once you have that there's there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get solar panels up for a dollar per per watt and I think that's where. 

18:34.55 

Jeff McAulay 

A. 

18:40.71 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Everyone's headed there. There are blockers in in some regions. You don't have enough density of demand. Of course you know in in Nebraska or Northern Norway it's going to be hard to have 1 project. You know on every street every day so you can stay efficient but but you know. Bar that there's no excuses to not get to $1. 

19:00.87 

Jeff McAulay 

Okay, so let's talk about financing then are these cash Systems Loan Lease ppa. What's the financing mechanism that's working. 

19:13.71 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Um, in Europe The datasets are poorer than the us. So everything's going to come off as a little anecdotal but in general the vast vast majority is ah direct sales Cash sales. Um. 

19:31.46 

Andreas Thorsheim 

And there's 2 reasons for that one is that um there is not really the same need for solar loans as banks have been a bit more forward-leaning in allowing people to increase the size of their mortgages when they're doing green projects on their house. So it doesn't appear as ah as a solar loan. It just shows up as an increase on the mortgage and then they'll let you buy a heat pump or a solar system for that and for the for the residential solar in solar it looks like cash that you earned through salary that you can't see the difference whether it was provided by the bank or or salary. Um, and then the secondary reason is that third -party ownership or ppas or loans or rather leases haven't been ah business developed in the same way as europe and I think sorry I'll just do that section again and the second ah reason is that in europe third -party ownership. Ah, leases. Um, haven't been business developed the way they have in in the us and the reason is that we had this slumber in the late 2010 s and early twenty twenty s where we didn't do as much solar and so we didn't get the sun runs and the sonovas over here. And that's changing otobo is providing subscription or or lease products. So do some of our major german competitors and and this now represents somewhere between one and three percent of the european market I think that share will grow and I think over time the. 

21:07.53 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Shape of the european market will look a lot more like the us 1 with with 25% 30% um in um, in the lease part of the market later on. 

21:17.70 

chrissass 

Now I live in Switzerland and in Switzerland most people don't own their home. They live in apartments. So a large percentage of the community is apartment dwellers. How does something like this work if I'm in a multitenant building. And I want to take advantage of the solar. How does how are you seeing this work across Europe. 

21:36.29 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Well, the short answer is. It's not working particularly well in in Europe. So um, the majority of europeans live in apartment buildings and and it's hard for technical and and grid tariffing reasons to make that work. Um, it should be It should be a good business case you put solar pounds on the top of ah, um, an apartment building. It's never in the shade There's no vegetation covering the panels and you can orient them towards the sun. Everything should be nice. And the problem is that each one each apartment usually has a meter of its own and and you don't want to pull wires into every single home you want to virtually you know net meter this between the different departments. Um, and that's not something that's easily feasible in most countries now. Norway is experimenting with sort of a digital um attribution model in which the and the grid provider would virtually allocate the solar and value between the the apartments and Spain lets you register several buildings within. Five hundred meters and say that okay there we virtually meter together. But but this is still on a very experimental stage and community solar and apartment solar hasn't really taken off and we're facing some regulatory hurdles in in pretty much all the countries in Europe to make that work. 

23:06.49 

chrissass 

Um, is there enough single family dwellings then that there's still a huge impact to be made then with the single family dwellings that don't have solar like what percentage of those do you think are already getting solar. 

23:18.32 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Out of the detached homes with with the occupant owners. Um, ah, we're still in the single digits percentage penetration. So. It's very early days. Um, some markets are a bit ahead in. Ah. In the Netherlands 25% of households have solar already which is quite impressive. Um, and if you take take out the ones that are only detached homes they're probably at at almost half so they're they're really pointing towards the future. But. 

23:54.24 

Andreas Thorsheim 

In in France you're at's low single digits and in the percentage of detached homes and there's 10000000 detached homes to to go for. So um, it feels like we're very close to to day one here. 

24:07.31 

Jeff McAulay 

This is all really exciting and it feels like early days as you're saying and but the trajectory here sounds very positive. What happens as we've seen solar growth in the Us is that you start to get. Ah, more resistance you mentioned some political resistance to to community solar What about the posture from utilities. Do you sense that there are utilities that are starting to try to put the brakes on an accelerating solar deployment. 

24:38.17 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Anyway, that's what killed us in the first wave in the the last episode you saw in the 2010 s but um, this ah market is at the base really wellpro protectcted by the european union so across Europe you have a uniform set of. Directives that protect the consumer's right to put solar on their roof to feed power back into the grid and forces the incumbent grid donors to accept that without applying unfair tariffs to the to the homeowner. Um, it also bans the member countries of the eu from putting unfair taxes on inverters or or feed-in that used to be the case in the in the mid 2010 S where Romania Belgium Spain were I think known to have had that type of that type of taxation. So and the eu is kind of the. Policemen making sure that the incumbents don't get too cozy with the regulators or or the utility commissions and and bans the consumers from from having something that's attractive and and helps them reduce their power bills. Um, so that's kind of the common. Base layer here that protects the consumer and allows solar to to keep growing in Europe um, but then of course entit is always complicated so there's ways in which you you need to figure out how you split the grid cost and and there's ongoing battles about moving the. 

26:10.50 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Filling away from and energy and over to fixed rates which is disadvantageous for for solar and you're talking about taking away. Um in incentives like investment aid or reduced value added tax. Um. But I think in general, the political momentum is generally more positive than it's negative. So you're having some adjustments on the grid level on on making rules and permitting. But in general the european politicians are really motivated to replace imports of um of gas from unsavory regimes and they've been. Very spooked last year um and they have very ambitious decarbonization targets and they need to do something and solar is often the lesser of of several evils. So in general, we're seeing we're seeing more incentives and more help than we're seeing Roblox. So I'd say. There's reason to be to be positive about european politicians here. 

27:11.10 

chrissass 

So what I'm hearing is friendly policy to to drive solar um now solar only happens when the sun's out. You know when when the wind's blowing um are these same folks that are putting rooftop solar in. Including storage as part of it today is that a trend is that happening where they at. 

27:30.34 

Andreas Thorsheim 

It's growing everywhere. But huge differences from country to country based on whether you can create a business case for for the battery and in Germany that's certainly the case and for every kilowatt hour you can avoid buying from the grid that's thirty cents ah saved if you feed your energy back into the grid. You only make ten cents out of it that difference of twenty cents easily and is a business case for storage and so you see 8 out of 10 systems sold in Germany include a battery same goes for italy. And we're seeing Austria probably also you know at those levels and then you have France Netherlands Norway at almost zero percent because you have such good rates when you feed back in the market is willing to pay a lot for your surplus power and and there's not really a business case for batteries yet. But um, it's getting better better everywhere increased volatility. Um, ah, grid operators and regulators trying to be smart about having the solar guys pay for for the grid that generally moves. Ah. Value over to the to the storage unit. Um, and and then of course cheaper and cheaper equipment means that it's easier to create a business case for batteries. So um I was very surprised by how fast batteries grew as part of our business two years ago um we now on the european average include the battery and. 

29:02.36 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Roughly every fourth sale. So I guess that's medium numbers and it's going to grow going forward. 

29:08.47 

chrissass 

And then of the batteries I'm also seeing the trend we're doing quite a bit of conversations on evs these days are you getting pressure from your customers to leverage their Ev as a battery as well. So they're doing a solar install and are there cars getting connected to these systems. 

29:25.86 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Ah, well evs are. It's already big and you know, um I'm recording from oslo Norway today nine out of 10 cars sold here this year so far are electric. Um, so this is. To a large degree the the norm um and we're seeing the same trends as California saw that you know 70% of ev owners already had Pv and we're seeing it the other way around that it' it's the it's the it's the opposite way around. But you you having the same type of correlation. So. 

29:52.84 

chrissass 

The cost during effect here think. 

30:02.16 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Um, I'd say that the ev search is driving demand for solar. Um, but people haven't started asking questions of how they can use this huge batteryon wheels to improve the the economics of solar they're thinking that the batteries are there to charge their car. Um, and and the car isn't there to help the home yet. But I think you know if you see the the lineup of new models for for 2024. There's a lot of capability here in interacting with the home that I'm really excited about and and I think it's going to be 1 of the big topics for for the rest of the decade. 

30:34.91 

chrissass 

Will that be a big transformation for a business like yours installing solar How does that transform your your kind of your model being on model. All stuff. 

30:42.40 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Yes, yeah, no I think you know we're very friendly with the ev charger guys. Um, and we get leads from them. We integrate with them and um. We're also looking to to be cooperative towards the automotive industry and and we're having several dialogues there where the big manufacturers in Europe are looking to partner up with with players who can get their home energy gear installed um who can provide. Um. Companion products to the e to the ev and the ev charger like batteries ah solar and maybe heat pumps maybe home management devices. Um and are looking for software solutions to integrate these things together. Um, so I think there's quite a lot of sweaty business development. Yeah, teams in the automotive manufacturing sector that are looking for for solutions here who want a piece of the pie and and are are eager to move on this. So I think this is increasingly a big story going. Forward. 

31:50.21 

Jeff McAulay 

Definitely exciting and the leadership of Europe Ev Adoption Especially in Norway we know a little bit about this thanks to will ferrell educating the american public in a super bowl commercial that make it make the rounds over there. Yeah. 

32:02.73 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Ah, yeah, you know small countries they make sure that every time they're mentioned in the Us it goes on the national in the national news. You know. 

32:09.16 

Jeff McAulay 

There you go there, you go one of the other areas of European leadership is around carbon pricing. How does that factor into the equation does that accrue to load serving entities or the installer or the homeowner. 

32:22.69 

Andreas Thorsheim 

You don't really see it. It's been a lot of talk about it. There will probably be border adjustment mechanisms influencing the the price of certain products. Um, it's on the margin it it affects the electricity price but it's It's kind of marginal compared to the other forces of supply and demand and you know in 20022 one thousand six hundred Terrawatt hours of power disappeared because we banned the imports of of russian gas and you know when you when you're looking at. Change is that order of magnitude nothing else matters you you're just seeing everything everything that has to contribute. So um, I'd say carbon pricing. Not not a big factor in creating solar demand right now. 

33:11.56 

chrissass 

What about policy and regulation for construction. So whether it's a new construction I mean you you talked about friendly tariffs but are are do you see solar being legislated in is part of building code moving forward is is that something that's. 

33:12.10 

Jeff McAulay 

And I said that. 

33:28.98 

Andreas Thorsheim 

And yes and the politicians see that as a very comfortable way to get more solar without having to pay subsidies or distort markets in any way they can just apply to building codes mandate solar on new government buildings and you're seeing this. 

33:29.50 

chrissass 

Happening here in Europe. 

33:48.31 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Um, happening at the national level. The french have been eager to do that for several years so new government buildings and and new high-rises need to have solar on them and you're also seeing that in in new directives from the eu that they would mandate. Construction to have to have solar included and I think what's going to happen is that the split you have in the solar market to where you typically think of it as utility scale the large parks at commercial and industrial. The the rooftop factory stuff. Residential the retrofit homes where where we put up 10 panels or or 15 panels on an existing house. Those 3 categories are going to have a fourth category which is the new build category and I'm not sure it's going to be the same players operating in that sector. Um, because just like other things in in the construction industry. Those firms are going to come with their own windows their own stairwells their own roofing material and their own panels and they're going to be big buyers of equipment but they're not going to feature on the same league tables and they're not going to think the same way as the operators of the 3 other categories. And and basically they're more or less going to give those solar systems away for free or at least included in the price of the home or the price of the building and it's going to lead to a cheaper building to operate to the benefit of the of the buyer of that building and maybe to the bank. You can. 

35:17.45 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Give that person a bigger loan because they're able to service more debt. so um so I'm thinking that's going to be a fourth category for solar within a few years now 

35:24.99 

chrissass 

So also you you mentioned we're kind of the early stages. It was a small percentage at homes that have solar on it more and more what is the life cycle of a solar panel so you have installer go out you put it on the roof I don't know roofhouse maybe a twenty thirty year life expectancy maybe longer here in Europe because. Things are built to last longer here. Um, what happens this this this whole solar panel. What what happens long term. 

35:52.40 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Hopefully nothing happens for a very long time. It. It just stays there and makes energy year in and year out until you get to the twentieth twentieth year um at that point if you're a leaser then your lease expires and you have the choice to either hand the product. Back or extend your lease or or upgrade to a new and futuristic super panel that we hopefully have in the 2040 s um, um, and then for a large part. You know these you can and if you're not ah if you're not a leasing customer. Ah you will have paid for this back in the 2020 s and you'll be happy that this darn thing still works and you can it. It will probably keep going long beyond its guaranteed lifetime of 25 years Um, maybe 3035 years into the future. It will start malfunctioning and that's the time when you um you call it tovo again and say. Ah, love the product last time around and when I was a young man and I'm an old geezer and I like another another hit please? Um, so these are extremely long- laststing things and the manufacturers are putting a lot of effort into making them last longer why because it drives down the lifetime cost of the thing. It means basically that the energy it produces um is is going to be cheaper you you pay now for something that's going to last longer then you have more kilowatt hours to divide the cost by. So um, these are going to be incredibly long-lasting things. Um, and um, um, hopefully ah. 

37:25.33 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Uneventful things now at the end of this lifecycle. This stuff is going to come down and in Europe now there's a lot of focus on on the recycling I think that's a bit premature maybe because we're now recycling stuff from the 1990 s and there's not a whole lot of it. Ah, but of course getting into the 2030 s and 2040 s we're going to start looking at the first wave of solar being retired and we need to do something about that and I think aluminium and silver in it is going to be recovered and and then the rest. Let's let's see what we can do with that. Hopefully. It doesn't turn into a waste problem. 

38:01.96 

chrissass 

So over that long life cycle. Um, what kind of service and cleaning and and who does this is the homeowner out thererubing their their solar panels are putting a robot on the roof or is this a service that that comes when they they buy this kind of thing or they buy a contract to maintain their performance of their panels. 

38:19.70 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Yeah, so I think the european climates are in general beneficial to cleaning and we have ample precipitation and so they're kind of self-cleaning. Um I've had solar panels for 8 years now I think i've. Removed some leafs a couple of times but but you know never I'm never up there. There's never anything that needs to be done. Um, and so in general, the maintenance part is is almost absent. Um, but of course as you get into the eighth ninth tenth Eleventh Twelfth year year then. The likelihood that you're going to change the inverter is going to start increasing and in leasing agreements. That's usually included as part of the lease. Um, if you're a cash buying customer then it's time to call up your provider and ask for a replacement part. 

39:12.54 

Jeff McAulay 

Let's talk about some of the lifecycle on the grid regarding duck curve or do you have a different word for it and I believe that starting to rear its head in Spain probably not as much in other markets. But how is that manifesting. 

39:26.87 

Andreas Thorsheim 

No, the the duck curve is alive and well and it's deepening here. There's talk of this turning into not a duck curve but a canyon um and I feel really good about that. Um, this is and sort of in and. Intellectualized phenomenon that people like to to create problems around but ah I think it's helpful thinking of it as a canyon so you'll have um, high energy need in the morning hours and then the sun rises and the. Ah, the need for for grid power energy is going to drop off a cliff hence canyon and then at six seven o'clock in the evening. Ah the canyon rises at the other end as you need to to fire up the alternatives to solar power and what happens to canyons over time they erode and disappear. And that's what's going to happen to this canyon too. Um, and when you look at these curves. Yes, certainly they're getting deeper but the high edges are also coming down because you're adding storage that moves the evening sun into the early night hours um and with evs and ever cheaper batteries. We're going to just. Keep smashing down the ed and the the evening end of the canyon very very quickly and I think people are underestimating how powerful solar wind and batteries are going to be at reducing the demand for anything but those 3 um and and I think you're already seeing it. You know. 

40:53.69 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Particularly in California where the business case for putting up. AnEastFacingcingPanel is very different from what it used to be ten years ago um you would usually just go for the for the you know the best the the best orientation southward. But now you're thinking okay well in the. I'm going to make this panel only make money in the morning and because it's so cheap. You'll still do that and what that means is that when you get far enough into the future from the moment. The sun gets above the horizon. It's going to hit a million panels. It's going to fire up the grid and you're not going to need anything else on a sunny day. And in the evening hours and the sun is going to set on a million millions and millions of panels and during the day they will have powered up millions and millions of batteries and we can go very far into the night and probably several days without having to to get another Ray of sun. And then we have our best friend wind power that's uncorrelated and usually blows blows more when when the sun is not up and I think this this band of 3 they're going to do big big things and so this this duck curve. Um this this canyon curve. Um. It's something that we're we're going to laugh about as ah, something that worried us 1015 years from now we're absolutely going to smash it. 

42:15.91 

Jeff McAulay 

I Love it. Smash Smash the Canyon break The yeah yeah I like that you want We don't immediately need deduct but but Smash the Canyon or fill fill the Canyon So I love the optimism and that's really encouraging and it sounds like you acknowledge there's going to be. 

42:18.61 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Yes, Mash the Canyon break the Canyon. Yep. 

42:34.45 

Jeff McAulay 

Tariff changes maybe some time a use rate some some fixed billing all of these with the economics and the trajectory that you're talking about today. There's room to run right through those based on the the starting point where you're at today and you mentioned that there is. A few areas. It sounds like most of what you've talked about are areas where the us can learn from europe if there is 1 or 2 areas. It sounds like that might be on virtual net metering the neme and mvy of of California and maybe some community solar but other than that it sounds like there's a lot of leadership. 

43:09.77 

Andreas Thorsheim 

And financing and financing consumer financing of the solar panels as figuring out smart ways to construct the portfolios around this um the the us is a decade or more ahead of us. So. 

43:11.82 

Jeff McAulay 

And financing. 

43:25.37 

Andreas Thorsheim 

We're We're good at operating and building this stuff. We're not so smart about building the businesses around it. So we'd be eager to have some help there. 

43:31.75 

Jeff McAulay 

I'm not sure I'm not sure it sounds like if you're getting mortgage financing for solar and energy efficiency retrofits that's probably ahead of the game and yes I'd love to claim leadership on the financing. But if a. Tax equity. You know flip ppa is costing $3 a watt and your cash deal is costing a buck a lot I'm not sure if financing is is winning. But yes, that's a nice thing. Do We miss anything. We covered a lot of ground This is really really phenomenal. Great insight to a lot of markets. 

44:05.12 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Um, oh I have so many rapid holes we could go down all of them. But I think you know I'm I'm very I'm very happy I Like the stuff we talked about now it's ah it's cool I like to compare and contrast between the Us and and and Europe I think I always like that when I listen to. 

44:23.90 

Andreas Thorsheim 

To this type of podcast. So I enjoy this a lot. 

44:25.19 

Jeff McAulay 

This was phenomenal. Thank you so much. This is really a delightful conversation. 

44:30.71 

Andreas Thorsheim 

Wonderful! yes. 

44:32.61 

chrissass 

For audience we hope you've enjoyed this content. It's been an exciting interview if you like solar please follow insider guide energy. We have lots of content on solar more to come and don't forget to subscribe follow us and follow us on Facebook as well. We'll talk to you again next time bye bye.