This week Chris and Johan are joined by Alex Vetsak who works for the geothermal company Eavor. Eavor has developed a new way of exctracting heat from the ground by using a closed loop system. The three discuss the issue of dispatchability and scalability of conventional geothermal and the role of geothermal in the energy transition. Listen in to find out more about what factors influence the CAPEX and OPEX of geothermal and where the company is headed.
Eavor's homepage
https://www.eavor.com/
This week Chris and Johan are joined by Alex Vetsak who works for the geothermal company Eavor. Eavor has developed a new way of exctracting heat from the ground by using a closed loop system. The three discuss the issue of dispatchability and scalability of conventional geothermal and the role of geothermal in the energy transition. Listen in to find out more about what factors influence the CAPEX and OPEX of geothermal and where the company is headed.
Eavor's homepage
https://www.eavor.com/
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| Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
| 03:40.87 | chrissass | welcome to insider's guide to energy I'm your host chris sass and with me as always as co-host Johan Oberg Johan what's going on today.
| 04:07.40 | Johan | Hi Chris great to be on again another another week. Another show really had a great weekend as well. Thank you very much. We had the opportunity to spend some time with the inside his guide exploring the swiss mountains.
| 04:21.95 | chrissass | It was fantastic putting the pictures out I don't normally put personal pictures on my Linkedin social media. So the 2 of us skiing. We definitely got some feedback and comment so that was kind of fun that that people saw that we actually hang out other than interrogating and talking to our guests on the show so that was kind of fun.
| 04:38.88 | Johan | For sure for sure. But apart from that I think you can easily tell the years kicking off, you know we go fiscal year now. It's full steam ahead with some covid changes of course as all of us and on the european market. We just realized that ew world.
| 04:40.81 | chrissass | Um.
| 04:58.58 | Johan | Big fiscal event has changed until June so I hope we can catch up with some of our listeners in June rather than in February but.
| 05:05.14 | chrissass | Yeah I I'd expect to be live there in June and by then we'll have some ah other personalities on the air I think we'll have our new show coming on our analytics show will be out by then there should be a lot of interesting things taking place. Um as this is going on the air. We should just be winding down or each year miniseries and you're listening to this. We had to add some additional episodes. We had so much traction that people reached out to us and had their favorite vendors and they had a couple additional vendors that we're gonna be adding that's going on and we have some guests some users who're gonna have an episode on the main show here where we talk to some users of Eachm um and get their feedback. It's been an interesting learning curve doing a mini series because. I apologize to you our visit our listeners who really aren't into etm because there's about 15 or 16 episodes just on etm we're back to normal here on the main show. So yeah, please forgive us for that if you don't like etm and if you did go ahead and like it and share it. But I really want to talk about today's topic because. I've been dying to have something with geothermal on the program. Um I think I asked Luka our producer here I said help us find someone that does something interesting in this space personally I like it I had it in my home in North America I went out and researched it and and had that all put into my house because I thought the value was there doing it. But I wanted to talk to a scale of the energy market and energy podcast and I think Luka did a great job delivering and bringing an interesting company in today.
| 06:28.60 | Johan | I agree I agree and I think as you said you know from from our houses. Um, and in Scandinavia I think is same thing in in the us using geothermal for your house is 1 thing as a frequent flyer and a frequent guest also to the some events and and on Iceland. Seen it kind of hands on on another one. But really I don't know too much about it apart from this. So I really look forward to getting really the amateur view of this. What is it? What does it do and and actually what is the development of this because it's it's sometimes old technology as well.
| 07:00.34 | chrissass | Yeah I think so and I think these guys do it pretty cutting edge I kind of get the drilling angle because they come out of Alberta canada which doesn't seem to be a geothermal hub to me that's not the first place but you know certainly if you're gonna drill and do things. There's certainly expertise there so I'm looking forward to here. How the hell do you end up in Alberta canada and and become geothermal specialists. But rather than us talk about it. Let's go ahead and bring our guests on board. Um today with us we have Alex Vetstack.
| 07:33.79 | Alex Vetsak | Hey guys
| 08:06.83 | chrissass | So tell us about the company. We we've already let out of the bag that you're something with geothermal. What does your company do
| 08:25.31 | Alex Vetsak | Our company is geothermal startup or we should call us ah a geothermal company operating in a startup mode. We are trying to bring a new way to develop geothermal resources worldwide so and commonly geothermal is. Associated with some shallow installations kind of like heat pumps for just for house heating or just ah, kind of like very tiny tiny something in your yard or you have unique projects which are located in very unique places. Like Iceland or some hotsp springs areas and so on where our idea is that we should bring geothermal as geothermal anywhere. So where which means that wherever you leave so like you have this heat underneath and you. Can get access to that so like so and of course the main question is is it feasible technically economically and that's what we're introducing in ever.
| 09:26.73 | chrissass | So when you say bring geothermal everywhere bring geothermal to who for what outcome.
| 09:30.29 | Alex Vetsak | Right. To any single household or any user and that comes to heating or cooling if you just need to heat your house or cool down your facility. And then of course power generation if you need to drive your electric car if you need to charge your iphone's laptops or but I rights like so you need electricity and you can generate electricity from geothermal heat which means to everybody.
| 10:03.56 | chrissass | Okay, okay, so so so the generation then to charge my car I've got it parked in the driveway and I've got my charger in the garage this is done then at a distributed level so you would put your own geothermal system into your own property in in charge your own car. Not. Not relying on the grid then okay.
| 10:23.45 | Alex Vetsak | It can be done both so and this is the beauty of ever technologies. So we're thinking about large scale power plants which would generate megawatts or gigawatts but then ah you would. Also want to have something which is more like off the grid or behind the fence system and that would be a small scale which would generate a few megawatts only and that can be done for a local community. So if your yard and your park consumption is. Over megawatts so like then of course you can install your own system. Well I'm joking but in general so you can go as small with five Megawatts electricity right? which would probably power a small community or a neighborhood and then you can go to.
| 11:15.50 | Alex Vetsak | Hundreds of Megawatts which would power large city with millions of people limited.
| 11:19.65 | chrissass | Well cool. So before before we go in and I Yohan Jon has been quiet. There being very patient letting me ask all kinds of silly questions and murder your names. Um, what I guess you said you're a company working in startup mode help me understand what that meant.
| 11:59.60 | chrissass | So so did you start? Did you start as a geothermal like so like I said in the beginning of program. So for my house in Maryland I lived in the Dc area I wanted geothermal. The roi was pretty as long as you had your house more than 5 years It was a no-brainer because the the closed loop system they put in and. And the reduction in cost and the hot water and all the benefits I got it from ah a heating point of view and in that climate and cooling point of view. Did you start on that track was were you a accompanied it was doing that or did you start up with this idea that your founders came together and said no, we're going to disrupt the energy market. Let's do this.
| 12:38.22 | chrissass | Awesome.
| 12:49.18 | Johan | So So going back a little bit i' got plenty of ah questions around the business models and and the customers et cetera but going back a little bit about it. Can you can you tell me and and tell the audience a little bit about the technology you mentioned that euothermal had been around for 4 years and we we just discussed that. What is the difference. What do you do that is changing this.
| 13:48.56 | Johan | Um, but does that mean that you can do it for any kind of size you mentioned smaller larger from from from almost to grid scale to to to to residential where where do you where you draw the lines is there is It is a one fit solution for everything sounds sounds magical.
| 14:08.22 | Alex Vetsak | That's a very good point honestly for us the biggest differentiator for us would be a dispatchability and the scale scalability. So which means that the system itself is a relatively simple. Um, in terms of drilling and completion. That's why we are not trying to bring something new unique where you need to work hard 5 years to invent this thing and prove in the field. So that piece is covered so like and then what do we do? So like we just drilled a subsurface radiator and that radiator. Yeah, just circulates the fluid. So the fluid goes in goes out so on the way down. It's cool fluid and then of course it's called fluid and then of course it will heat up while it's going through this hot rock subsurface and when it goes up. It's hot fluid and it's hot enough to be used as a power source or heat source to rotate turbines on surface and these turbines will generate power. But if it's not hot enough. So like then you can use it for districating and again. Depending on technology on surface. You can convert it to either power or heat or cooling or like cold air for your conditioning need needs. So that's ah in the nutshell and talking about scalability. So we don't depend on any specific aquifers. We don't depend on geology. We don't need to frac these wells we don't need to kind like to install them in a very unique place in terms of subsurface right? So like that's what we don't want to do and also we can go with a small system. Which would consist of a few wells and then it will generate less power of course and then if we see that there is a demand for more power. We can add those loops and think of them as a stackable lego pieces. So you just add add add ad selecta and that's how you grow your system. Of course you can start with a little bit larger system in the beginning. But again it will be just a larger piece of lego so and then you just again stack stack stack and that's how you get up to hundreds of megawatts in the same place now. Dispatchurability is another thing usually with the conventional geothermal reservoirs. You cannot or wells. You cannot stop production so it will produce all the time. There is no kind of way to just unless you want to shut down the plant. So for us the system doesn't have influx of fluid.
| 16:52.31 | Alex Vetsak | From the reservoir. So we're just circulating our own fluid in a very closed system and this fluid obviously can be stopped so you just choke the valve on surface you stop that you let the fluid heat up or just um. Bring more heat into the system subsurface and then again when you need it So like so you turn the valve on so like the fluid will so kick ah kick on it will start flowing on surface and you have more energy or more heat concentrated in the same volume. So like so that's how you can like build up the. The energy. Let's say or harvest more energy when you need it so and that works really well with some regions where your demand is either a sinusoidal or follows some that curve and it goes or Peaks up in evenings. When people come back and they plug in their electric cars or do whatever so they need and that's where you would want to generate more power and if you are combining these systems with some other conventional or sorry renewable systems like solar or wind then of course if. Your sun is down. You have less energy. So Now you can use this one as ah, your other your a booster or the base flow or even consider that as your battery so where you would want to store more energy during the day hours and then just bring Yeah this energy up.
| 18:27.27 | chrissass | So sorry Johan has to ask the question but I have to ask because he he he wanted to speak. But if if you can produce the energy. Why why do I need this as basic like why do I need the the wind or the solar if if this can be on all the time right? you can stop it I get that.
| 18:27.33 | Johan | Um, which.
| 18:27.36 | Alex Vetsak | In the evenings. Whoa.
| 18:45.46 | chrissass | So so are you just saying because when the load drops that so the wind or solar will be so much more that in the in the low peak non peak times. This is the base load is why why you would do this.
| 18:53.64 | Alex Vetsak | Oh guys come on I listen to your podcast. So like so you can answer this question easily. Ah so ah, solar and wind are progressing in big steps and obviously the cost of energy in some regions using solar.
| 19:04.73 | chrissass | Um.
| 19:13.20 | Alex Vetsak | Assistance is a way cheaper. So but again, if you go 20 years back so it was not that cheap. So the same with geothermal or at least with geothermal systems we have so they're not that cheap as solar panels for today. And obviously you would want to use the cheapest source possible but again so if you're living a little bit north if you have more clouds as usual in your region. So then of course solar is not the best option for you so you would want to rely on something more. Base load or more reliable source which is always with you.
| 19:52.25 | chrissass | Cold. Thanks.
| 19:53.30 | Johan | So So here here's probably a stupid question but I have to ask it from based on the technology that you mentioned so so if you use this as the power on and off. So Basically you're running solar during the day or or wind. And you use this as your baseload or as your battery as you mentioned that means that you hold the the water if I understand it in the in the system for a longer period of time does that mean that it heats up more or do you get the same kind of heat coming out of the water if you if it's constantly rolling.
| 20:25.38 | Alex Vetsak | It will so it will heat up to the to the point where it has like the maximum density right? select So which means that you will not be able to like to heat it up continuously but it will definitely heat up to the temperature. Of the environment which is your subsurface. Ah Rock. So and then again you store that there and it's sitting there so like and it's ready to be Consumed. So and when you turn it on you will have like the maximum capacity college or the maximum. Density off energy going up.
| 21:03.89 | chrissass | Cool so su now I know that we're talking you tonight from the road that you you're going all over the world and and working on these projects and things and you happen to be in the North America and us today. Um, so are there more are there legislations are there like Epa constraints or. Other constraints from drilling in different markets that you've come across is that ah is that a gate or hurdle it. You need to overcome.
| 21:30.72 | Alex Vetsak | They do exist for sure. Each jurisdiction has its own rules and permits historically drilling wells developing resources in North America is easier than in Europe I cannot speak about Asia. But we we haven't seen any like roadblocks for drilling geothermal wells. Um, apparently geothermal wells were drilled ah decades ago and governments of different countries try to. Try to develop geothermal resources they had and that's why they built those frameworks not all countries have them but more and more countries are introducing them as a localized kind of like regulations now. Obviously if they add oil and gas drilling they will take that one as the template if they had other drilling industries would it be mining or something else. They will take that one as a framework. Um, but it works and no, we don't see any issues with that.
| 22:45.49 | chrissass | Um, cool.
| 22:47.20 | Johan | So So in terms of we spoke a little bit before in terms of the financial modeling in terms you know the investment upfront et Cetera So Would you say how? how is your customer financing this or how you finance this is this is it through so And. Subsidies or is it through ppas or how does this work.
| 23:28.40 | Johan | So that means that your your your customers will then own the actual energy production and licensing your your your technology So you're you're really not the energy provider or the energy producer.
| 23:40.85 | Alex Vetsak | I can help with that one so it works both ways. Actually so like we will develop our own resources call it right? So like so and we will produce and sell sell this and energy to the grid or to the client but we.
| 24:00.92 | Alex Vetsak | Don't want to own that to ourselves right? So like and develop one at a time so like which would take probably hundreds of years before we can do anything serious. That's why we would want to. Provide this license this technology to other operators to other companies and they will take it and build those plans other in parallel with us or maybe even like scale it faster than we can do.
| 24:26.53 | chrissass | So have you already been brought into some other projects so where there's a Pv project or win project to help do the base load have you been incorporated into some of these other larger programs. Are you talking to folks about doing that as being part of it.
| 24:42.50 | Alex Vetsak | The answer is yes we do talk we do discuss we do provide some feasibility studies about that and clearly it is feasible. It is doable. The question is when.
| 25:01.64 | Alex Vetsak | I Don't know.
| 25:02.95 | chrissass | I'm just curious. It seems you know from from the premise you said and you you made fun of me that you'd listened to our show before that that no one solution solves everything right? So if I if I look at your website and things I read there's a map of the world I think I don't know if it's your website or some some material and shows that this works. Quite a bit more places than people would expect. Um you you just talked about the costs and the economy and doing base load and so if I have a wind park or I have something else. Storage is still an issue or producing power at all at peak times and off peak times and so it would seem that this could be part of a part of a larger development effort. So I put my wind farm in or I put my Pv park in and and and you're just part of it that that seems pretty Cool. So I Guess your you go to market right now and and so you'rere you're young, you're growing. Um, you said you're doing feasibility Studies. You're talking to folks, you're you're obviously traveling quite a bit to to get the word Out. You have a direct sales program or how how are you getting this licensing message out to the industry other than being on Insider guide to energy and and telling all our audience about it. What else are you doing.
| 26:51.88 | chrissass | Are one of the providees or is Canadian government helping you get ah an initial project I mean I know that from my experience that they're They're great with working with renewables the Canadian government and there's a lot of effort. There are they working with you to help that happen.
| 27:32.75 | Alex Vetsak | Ah I'd like to add to this one. 1 of the goals was of course to demonstrate the technology so like and like Mary mentioned so like we have ah an active closed loop system here in Alberta so which was built with support from the government. So also we're working continuously on different technologies and that's where we also get support from the government. So in research grants working with different universities and that only well not wrong. So that means technology focused. Application focused production specifics and all also optimization of future projects. So which means that it's not like just a short-term investment so like it's a long term research and development work.
| 28:25.32 | chrissass | So to the control systems for what you do is that is that a software project that you have a team or if I license this am I licensing What exactly does someone license from you or what do they get from you So Whether it's at small scale or big Scale. You've built a proof of concept you got something there So I guess. As a business leader I look at this and say okay if you want to scale this out across the world you you got to build this out right? So I get that you're licensing it. But what exactly are ah am I licensing from you guys or would it would I get from you. You.
| 29:05.40 | chrissass | Okay, so it's it's it's off the shelf parts. So the turbines everything like that is stuff. That's well I think we started the show by saying you're you're using existing technology and and it's it's your technology to understand how to to put the loops in it is is the key differentiator is that what I'm hearing you say.
| 29:24.48 | Alex Vetsak | that's correct yeah that's correct so like so it's when we started this ah company. We're thinking about simpler ways to of course to develop that. But more we went into this geothermal and more we understood that. So like we realized that there's a gray area or let's say the technology which is not directly available but also like so the unique way of building our geothermal systems. Ah, can be protected so it's a combination of actual technologiess methods processes. So like we're trying to combine that all together and we're also working with various partners developing some missing pieces or optimizing those which are not super optimized for us. You know, um, the cost of our systems is high to it's like an intensive or capital intensive project. So but once you've built it so like so the operating cost is low and the lifetime or lifecycle is pretty long. So which means that you would want to protect. That initial capital investment and when we license that so like so we demonstrate what can be done in the beginning to drill or to build these systems in in the most efficient way because once you spent this capital so like you know that there's kind of like minimum. Cost to operate those things on top of sorry just just 1 more comment on top of technology licensed technology. So like we're also of course trying to provide this service. How to.
| 30:56.97 | Johan | Um, so see we yeah sorry go on.
| 31:15.28 | Alex Vetsak | Build this first loop and once this one is built so like then the next one will be probably ah overtaken by like local teams or operators to continue building.
| 31:27.30 | Johan | So the operations will then be managed by whoever then lies to it. Okay, so if we roll forward a couple of years I don't know we year five years whatever the technology is proven. You've started your installations. You have the fundings.
| 31:30.26 | Alex Vetsak | Correct.
| 31:44.31 | Johan | Now I put my my marketing hat on and see okay but what segments are we then starting to go after because obviously you you have a broad opportunity here to go after everything from from the renewables to to the municipalities to utilities even all the way down to the consumers. But where will you see are the the kind of the I wouldn't say the low hangging fruit's probably the wrong word in our industry but where would you see the segmentation Once you start going Commercial. What will be the initial ones.
| 32:18.50 | Alex Vetsak | I'll take this one there if you don't mind. Um, so for us the low hanging for it would be markets where prices are high thermal gradients are high. And the cost of drilling is relatively low because most of the cost is coming from drilling at this point. Ah, of course you would want to get the the highest prices for your product obviously and if you think geographically there are some places in the world. And Germany is 1 example where all 3 things combined are working in our favor. So but Germany is not the only place where you have those so you can get a combination of 2 of them. So North America is a good example because you have like a really. High thermal gradients in the west us you've got drilling technology mature and relatively inexpensive compared to other markets. Prices are not good, but you should find the way or the space where the price would be attracting. So islands they have especially volcanic islands. They have high thermal gradient. They have high prices because you compete with diesel or coal or some other means but the cost of drilling will be pretty expensive because it's remote. Location. You need to bring everything else. So.
| 33:54.32 | Alex Vetsak | Honestly, we have people working with different entities worldwide and the most recent development is in Singapore where it's it's ah it's a very interesting request. For our technology because this country is relatively small. You would consider that but they have strong interest to develop everloops on their land and then of course Japan the Uk Europe. Homeland would be interested as well. So it's it's a combination of these 3 factors.
| 34:35.35 | Johan | So that's the geographical point of view I can understand and the drilling and and and the rest but 1 step further who is who is actually then buying this and operating it for you is is this the utilities that will do this or is it the large industries. Is it the the municipalities that go to want to go. They're off grid who who's actually once you have all the perfect conditions who are the first ones is going to do it. In Germany or in in the islands.
| 35:10.16 | Alex Vetsak | Right? So that would be most likely independent power plant operators who would want to like who's got expert who've got expertise who have a relationship with the local municipality or with local authorities. Ah, potentially they already have par purchase agreement so in place so that would be ah the low hanging fruit in terms of clients.
| 35:39.14 | Johan | Oh interesting.
| 35:40.44 | chrissass | Well Cool. So So you've described kind of work as how how deep and how much like you talk about drilling right? and so to get to the temperatures that you need how deep are we drilling through just layers and layers of bedrock are we you know we getting down. Yeah, like describe what the drilling process is I get that there's some intellectual property there but just in principle. What what are you drilling to.
| 36:07.65 | Alex Vetsak | We are drilling. Okay, no because I'm an engineer right? So like so I'll start like throwing some engineering terminology right? So like so yeah, right? So ah.
| 36:19.17 | chrissass | Try to explain it like you're explaining it to me or your mom.
| 36:26.81 | Alex Vetsak | We will be drilling different formations that's number 1 So what combines them is heat which means that if a sedimentary rock like a sedimentary basin has high heat gradients then we will drill there.
| 36:28.64 | chrissass | Okay.
| 36:46.71 | Alex Vetsak | If you have some volcanics or some active kind of zones near to volcanics right? So like or active volcanoes. So then we will build build drilling there and if you don't have any of those.
| 36:54.76 | chrissass | Yeah, understood.
| 37:04.34 | Alex Vetsak | Then it will will drill into the basement which has on average ° per C per kilometer temperature grad.
| 37:16.30 | chrissass | So I guess that's my question right? So I think the premise of your company of 1 of the premises I've heard you say in the value here and doing some research is this this works everywhere more or less right? Some places better than others so you know certainly if I have a volcanic and and I have.
| 37:27.46 | Alex Vetsak | Correct.
| 37:33.36 | chrissass | Lava just just below my feet that's probably not a very deep drill. Um, but if I'm somewhere not 1 of those places it still works and so my question is and and you said that the cost the project. What I understood has to do with the drilling capabilities. So in some remote island where you'd have to ship all the the drilling equipment in. You'd have the cost of shipping the equipment and not the drilling may not be any more expensive unless you're telling you you know you have to go deeper or some other reason. So what I'm trying to do in my mind is kind of calculate this out. So I get if it's a long-term roi. That's fine if you look at what energy plants are today if I put a nuclear. Plan in or if I put a traditional coal plan in or something like that the the project lifespan in in the old world of energy was probably 30 years plus right? So you had time to recoup your investment now. The challenge I think from the cheap seats is if I look at the distributed plants going in today. The ah roi and them are very quick. Because of the lower cost to go in and and nobody has an idea that you know in in the time that your facility will continually be pumping energy out I've probably gone through multiple generations of solar pv or you know and I've probably gone through my turbines have been upgraded in my wind turbine farm or whatever and I would suspect that you still have your same. Core loop in place for for a much longer period of time and you may change your turbines or something like that. But that the core the core expense is already sunk. It's there. So I guess that's what you're competing against so I was trying to figure out hey if you've got to dig you know so many kilometers deep and into bedrock that's going to be really expensive and really slow. And then the second thing is if you guys are successful. Do you get economies of scale or you know like the laserdisc player when they first you know you first wanted laser stuff in the beginning. It was super expensive. But if if a lot of people are putting the technology in and you get economies of scale and the drilling capabilities should come down in price as well is that all logo.
| 39:22.60 | Alex Vetsak | So you nailed it down actually so like you answered your own question honestly, so when for example, unconventional reservoir development in oil and gas started twenty years ago the cost of drilling was super high and not a lot of players were drilling.
| 39:41.89 | Alex Vetsak | And these projects were either supported by the government or they were like so like ah just a like 1 ne-time kind of like project because of regional geology and so on or some some other benefits of developing this but then more and more players were coming in. Service companies started investing in mining so like in developing technologies for that particular application and then you saw like a significant decrease in cost so that allowed drilling more complicated projects and we call them unconventional. But honestly, so like within this unconventional portfolio you have tier 1 tier 2 tier 3 and so on so like off resources and the cost will be kind of ah dependent on that so we do understand that the cost of drilling right? now is high. But if you take this shale revolution in the states. What they call it and you go through like a decade of technology development and cost of services. You can see a significant reduction. So is it following a pattern for sure the same happened with other industries so we would expect that starting. Drilling geothermal projects. You would target relatively shallow and high gradient but over time the cost of drilling per kilometer per location per ever loop will go down significantly that the drilling cost will not be that major contributor to the overall capital. Ah, the project. So like so that's where you would start optimizing other capital costs which applies to surface facilities to the connection to the grid and so on and you can drive it down as well. So working on all of that. So like you can drastically decrease the cost capital cost of drilling. So and again you would probably. Calculate the levelized cost of electricity in this case or would you count for capital spend per Megawatt or whatever. It's like so it doesn't matter so like some metrics but it will go down for sure.
| 41:44.65 | chrissass | Cool.
| 41:45.95 | Johan | So so we we discussed on this show quite a bit in terms of renewable energy as you you probably heard before and and one of the things for example, always comes up when we talk about wind is yes, everyone wants wind but not on my backyard kind of ah, an attitude which is which is 1 thing. Out of curiosity when when it comes to to to your kind of services facilities and and the infrastructure needed. What are we talking about most of it's underground so we won't be noticeable anyway, there's 1 thing but but surely there's something above ground that needs protection areas, buildings et cetera. What are we talking about sizewise here.
| 42:40.77 | Alex Vetsak | Have you ever been to Singapore I haven't been there as well. No no like hi me not me, but but what I heard yeah what I heard that so the land there is super expansive.
| 42:43.17 | Johan | Um, never but I sure would like to yeah.
| 42:47.11 | chrissass | Um, random back. Thank you.
| 42:58.71 | Alex Vetsak | And even if you have money to buy it. So like so you will not get it why because the land is there is super expensive not in money cost but like in resource cost. So that means that you have to find a way how to use or to have to have the smallest footprint. Possible and solar or wind are not the greatest options for that. Well we all know that so with ever on surface as a geothermal power plant. It will have a small footprint compared to other things. But again if you want to have it in your backyard. It's like so that's still big. Another option is that you can actually with geothermal systems. You can also put your ah power generation facility underground and that's a solution for countries like Singapore. Where they don't want to have anything on surface. They want to have a park instead of geothermal plant. So that that kind of like tells that your footprint could go from relatively small compared to other power generation facilities to nothing does it answer your question.
| 44:11.16 | Johan | Rush for sure did for sure and it's an interesting approach because this is obviously one of the the key factors in anything we do in in in large scalele energy production. You know we I work in or we both work in in a country that is big on hydro and and when we see the. Big hydro dams up in the mountains. Those are not small installation. Those are quite quite massive. You look at solar farms wind farms coming out of the nordics and on then on the seashores. It takes up the fair bit so it should be an appealing approach I would assume but coming back a little bit. Maybe to to to your discussions that you mentioned before we talked about the investments in terms of financial if that's solved by ppa or or in other subsidies but but also as as a company you have some new investors coming in and 2 of them kind of. My Eyeli bit with with with Chevron and Bp and it would be just interesting to if if you have any input on what what are there kind of is this a pilot thing for them is this part of their renewable. You know they're what why are they investing in you guys.
| 45:38.72 | Alex Vetsak | Ah I would I would add to this one and I'm not hijaking your turn Mark. So I'm just ah so I would add that companies like Bp or shavron they have all core skills. Already developed to switch to geothermal drilling or geothermal development think of those energy companies. They know how to drill wells they know how to produce resource on surface. They know how to process that on surface. They know how to ship it to whatever location. But they also know how to sell So how to trade resources like they're so fifth for purpose. It's an easy switch for them and because we're not talking about geology as the core kind of like for them. So like of course it is important. But like for them. It would be a relatively easy transition from sedimentary rocks. They were developing worldwide to geothermal specific right? So like would it be ignez or would it be sedimentary with some heat so you're pretty much just replacing this oil and gas. Or other hyyrons. They're developing with heat so there will be harvesting this heat producing that So like so selling that So like in terms of thermal energy or electricrocondel energy. So yeah, That's why they that's super attractive and it's scalable. That's important for that. Because before they were looking into geothermal power production or power generation. It was not super scalable So now with this technology. It's Scalable. It can be built worldwide and for them as a global company. So like they would definitely want to do that.
| 47:27.80 | chrissass | Very cool. Um, we're we're starting to run out of time I do have kind of 1 last question for me and I'll let Johann we have one more at bat here because I know he's got plenty of questions as do I sue. I know yeah, you talked about why these these these hydro companies or hydrocarbon companies would be interested in you and I think the core technology also brings over. We've seen this in marine we've seen this in other industries where they invest where they they have some core confidence that that help accelerate perhaps but my analogy to the marine energy industry. Is a lot of them get together because you know when the tide goes up all ships rise right? you you need those economies to scale. So are there other groups that you work with is there a geothermal ah like effort that you're a part of that you're you're you're jointly trying to get this to go or is this ah just a free competition like have you. Have you partnered up with others to help get the message out for this kind of a technology even if your intellectual property may be different. You know is there is there some some economies to scale there.
| 48:27.27 | Alex Vetsak | We do work with other geothermal other companies or even working close with Regulators with Associations would be international. Would it be a north American Geothermal association which is. Geothermal rising. You guys might be aware of that and obviously we would do work with other geothermal operators who have an interest in this technology because you know sometimes like so you have the lees. Or you have like a power so agreement you would want to fulfill but you don't have resource the right resource to do that. So like so that's where you would want to like to bring some other technology which would either complement or enhance or um. Just scale up your power production.
| 49:26.12 | chrissass | Cool Yohan any final questions or thoughts.
| 49:28.32 | Johan | Well first of all, thank you very much I thought this was really interesting I came in very novice and I picked up a a fair bit of of this I know it's great isn't it but 1 of the things I I was just curious about we're mainly we're in January Twenty Twenty two
| 49:37.58 | chrissass | You're still very novice by the way.
| 49:48.28 | Johan | Ah, what are that? What are the the main thing to look forward to this year for you guys? What? what? What? What's gonna rock the boat a little bit for your technology and your company in 2022 what are you looking forward to.
| 50:21.77 | Alex Vetsak | Yeah, so like I'm I'm hoping like to continue into in this to work in this startup mode but like where we're superchared so like we're work as a team. So super efficient I would say so we're growing fast even in those pandemic. Kind of like or covid related timings or times. So and our team has grown probably 2 times or 3 times married like you know exact number we were continuously testing our technologies developing new technologies.
| 50:57.26 | Alex Vetsak | So it's an ongoing process. So like so we brought more investors in the last two years we've got more projects outlined or already kind of like in that feed stage worldwide. So we have a real test. Well here in the North America and we plan to build like first stage of a commercial project this year so if you kind of like put this all together. 2022 is super exciting year for us if we kind of like checkmark all of our targets that'll be awesome. So like if we checkmark just one of them that'll be awesome. So like so just. Work in this team is awesome. Why.
| 51:36.31 | chrissass | Well awesome I have to say Sarah Alex it's been amazing for me I think it's been fun I feel the passion coming through It's contagious that that's the fun part about being in young companies is you got that energy and and the. And the the drive to do what you need to do? Um I thank you so much for being our guest on the show I look back to check in with you guys again in the future to to hear about your commercial project I want to hear about that big win. Don't don't forget about us when you have it because we we definitely want to make that out to our audience because it's exciting times.
| 52:12.00 | chrissass | Exciting to hear that. So thank you so much for being our guest.
| 52:16.62 | Alex Vetsak | It was truly appreciate it this invitation and this time guys with you. So.
| 52:25.80 | chrissass | Well, thanks again for our audience. You've spent another hour listening to insider's guide to energy. We. We hope this first entry into geothermine energy has given you a lot of ah things to think about and perhaps if you're in a position to either invest or to make these kind of decisions reach out to our friends. And we will talk to you again next week bye bye