On time for his publication called "12 Insights on Hydrogen", Gniewomir Flis joins Chris and Johan to talk about his findings. This episode is a deep dive on various topics including the role of hydrogen for climate neutrality, geological hydrogen storage and its future use cases.
Listen in, to find out more about grey, blue and green hydrogen as well as the the potential of ammonia.
Agora Energiewende and the publication can be found here:
https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/projects/12-insights-on-hydrogen/
On time for his publication called "12 Insights on Hydrogen", Gniewomir Flis joins Chris and Johan to talk about his findings. This episode is a deep dive on various topics including the role of hydrogen for climate neutrality, geological hydrogen storage and its future use cases.
Listen in, to find out more about grey, blue and green hydrogen as well as the the potential of ammonia.
Agora Energiewende and the publication can be found here:
https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/projects/12-insights-on-hydrogen/
Broadcasting from the commodity capital of the world, Zurich, Switzerland, this is ‘Insiders Guide to Energy’.
This edition to Insiders Guide to Energy is brought to you by Fidectus. Go to www.fidectus.com for more information.
| Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
| 06:47.90 | chrissass | Welcome to insider's guide energy I'm your host chris sass with me as always as co-host Johan oberg johan how's it going.
| 07:04.97 | Johan | All good chris another week another show looking forward to this 1 out of many reasons but been a good week obviously as everyone else I've been following the cup 26 we mentioned that on our 1 of our previous shows but it's ended now when we broadcast and. Ah, think it's quite related to what we do.
| 07:25.40 | chrissass | Yeah I mean it's it's been fun to watch. There's been a lot of press. In fact, yeah I came home from the office today I needed a few minutes downtime before we did the recording night and I I laid down and picked up my phone and started surfing the news and it was almost depressing. It was just 1 energy story after another I was like at bbc news I went. Um, us news sites and it was like man this is a bit depressing reading all this ah this this this kind of environmental news. It. It wasn't particularly rosy and pretty much headlined. So. You know, hopefully we get together and with our guests and things and and we find a direction that you know my kids aren't reading news as depressing as I'm reading you know when I come home from work these days.
| 08:00.83 | Johan | Now but it's funny as well. You know from you know from a marketing point of view in a communication point of view. It's it's quite funny to see the the kind of the shift from from communication from individuals and corporates in ah in ah, just a matter of months now suddenly everyone. The most important thing is sustainability etc. I I hope they're sincere I really do I hope they will keep it but I'm just afraid that a new trend will come around the next month and then they will have another topic but we'll see we'll see.
| 08:30.19 | chrissass | Yeah I mean I think it's about economy right? So with with so much going on with covid and the craziness in the world. There have been some setbacks even when the cop meeting was got moved and and so for me, the risk is the economy you know and there's there's there's risk in the economy all the way around us and yeah, something. Some people are going to worry more about the economy than maybe some of them suggested measures I think and that will probably slow things slower than people like but on the bright side for this week's show. We get to talk to someone that works at a think tank. Spends his time thinking about Hydrogen and in energy and he was really nice. He's got ah a paper coming out on the eighteenth and we're we're kind of talking him about the subjects they're gonna release in his paper coming out and it comes just on the the talented wiger theater show a couple weeks ago where we interviewed a hydrogen company so were we're starting you and I to get our.
| 09:14.19 | Johan | Um.
| 09:21.82 | chrissass | Toe and the hydrogen you know dipping our toe in the Hydrogen water for lack of a better expression and and see what's going on so I'm really looking forward to it I've come up with some questions and the priest call with luka today I was talking to luka and I said you know the the 1 thing that I'm picking up around Hydrogen is the Economics. Don't always work. And having been in engineering my whole career is occasionally you get a problem that seems like it's it's a solution looking for a problem and and and I want to make sure Hydrogen's not that I'm going to challenge our guest on that because the economics are a bit challenging, especially without subsidies and without government support and so. Is this going to be. You know the equivalent of blockchain was an energy where everyone says's going to solve. Every problem is is hydrogen 1 of those ones. That's you know, yeah, doesn't do this? Okay so we can't really heat home so we can't do this but it does this 1 really well and then you know if we only had some regulation at the economics work and so that's kind of some of the stuff that I'm interested in because you know i.
| 10:14.52 | Johan | Yep.
| 10:18.75 | chrissass | I Love it from the science point of view I Just kind of wonder about the business end of it.
| 10:21.95 | Johan | Now I agree I think that there's you you spot on on on a number of things. What would intrigued me a little bit as well. I read its article in the forbes magazine a few weeks ago in terms of the transition of industries and are we talking about the actual production of energy and and and the. Digital technologies that are entering the market but 1 of the things they highlighted in this 1 is that there's a lack of younger people coming into this industry as well. They were highlighting a few industries where there was actually ah a knowledge gap in the next 10 years and energy was 1 of them and if I'm not mistaken I hope I'm not here. Our guest is also not just representing some of the new technologies around but also representing a new generation which I think will be quite interesting to to kind of. Drill down to a little bit as well to see you know why? Why do you get into this and and what motivates people around this but you know we've been. We've been talking long enough about our expectations and what we think I think it's time to introduce the guests and I'll do my best with trying to pronounce the name and welcome to the show.
| 11:32.78 | Gniewomir | Hey it's great to be here now I actually think I'm getting closer to ferdy than not so I'm not sure I'm not sure if I'm a great voice for the new generation. But but I'll do my best.
| 11:33.90 | Johan | Meal at fleece.
| 11:45.73 | Johan | Yeah, but you if we look at the average of the energy industry then yeah, by far I see as young, but that's that's that's that's only a number. It's also I think what's what's behind So I'm really looking forward to this. But for our audience before we move forward. Ah who. Are you and who is gore.
| 12:07.46 | Gniewomir | Right? So I am a project manager for the Hydrogen stream at agora andervanda and we are a thinkt tank headquartered in germany but with a global presence and our mission is to suggest policies that are evidence-based that will allow us. To reach nets that will allow us to reach climate neutrality by 2050 whilst retaining growth in the economy.
| 12:37.40 | chrissass | So.
| 12:37.40 | Johan | So Who are who are you a think tank I like it. We've had a similar similar parts of it as Well. You know trying it from lobbyist to to research papers etc. Um, this is a big area. There's a lot of stakeholders involved who who are you? the. Think time for who are you working for? who's your customers.
| 12:58.60 | Gniewomir | Ah, well we don't really have customers per se all our research is publicly available. We are just willing to engage with anybody or well actually not willing to engage. We are willing to engage with anybody really and are and are. Ah, research is directed at everybody but um, well or at least designed to be picked up by anybody but it is directed at policymakers and we are very much targeting the german the german policymakers as well as the european policymakers. But but not just limited to that agoor has branches in beijing recently we will be opening a branch in a small branch. This is actually just a pilot project in Russia but and we have an office in Bangkok so we are yeah yes, our work is global in reach and we are. Very much targeting I guess the customer is the policy maker.
| 13:55.39 | Johan | But as a commercial person. There's always a customer behind it somewhere which is which is quite interesting. We talked a little bit about the introduction here on energy sources and then specifically on hydrogen and we had a guest on a few weeks ago.
| 13:58.62 | Gniewomir | Right.
| 14:14.50 | Johan | Talking about Green hydrogen um in in your words when when we kind of drill down a little bit in the world of hydrogen. How would you kind of define it and what? what? what does it kind of stand for in in your view.
| 14:29.75 | Gniewomir | Right? Ah are we so we're talking specifically about Green hydrogen or Hydrogen in general right? Well so so I would say that in general hydrogen is a crucial tool for reaching climate neutrality.
| 14:33.96 | Johan | Um, you decide.
| 14:46.74 | Gniewomir | But it is secondary to direct their electrification and the most important type of hydrogen by far is Green hydrogen or renewable hydrogen because this is the only hydrogen that is truly sustainable in the long run.
| 15:00.80 | chrissass | So so yeah I like the green hydrogen conversation. In fact, um, yeah I think if you're going to produce it. It's there I do know from some of the research that you're doing that you did talk about supporting those some of the more gray like I think there was some some.
| 15:02.50 | Johan | I.
| 15:18.26 | chrissass | Reference from stuff I've seen you release or are about to release that talks about Russian still using Fossil Fuels to generate hydrogen things like that. But it didn't seem that in your long-term strategy that you were totally opposed to it in the short run. It seemed like it was more of a. Ah, band-aid to get us to all green was that a mis understanding of what you were trying to communicate because I I could as swore there was kind of a blue Hydrogen Era in there from your perspective that was okay.
| 15:42.12 | Gniewomir | Yes, so we need we need to draw draw a line between the different types of hydrogen to be clear agora does not support any expansion or continued use of gray which is unabated hydrogen from fossil fuels now what we've what you've alluded to is the idea of. Having blue hydrogen as a transitory tool to to a broader renewable Hydrogen economy and that's true this this is quite a controversial topic and we've seen we've seen research recently come out from America by. Robert howard and Mark jacobson which showed that under certain circumstances. Um, notably when there is lots of uncontrolled methane leakage and low carbon capture rates. Blue hydrogen can actually be worse than natural gas. But. In some ways. This is a fringe case and what we at agora are trying to put forward is strong standards both on methane leakage and on carbon capture and when you are compliant with or. If a project is compliant with these strict requirements that we've proposed then realistically realistically ah over the next decade or so the entire footprint lifecycle footprint of that plant is not much worse than hydrogen made from renewable electricity. Backed by ah sorry that Hydrogen made by electricity but with some backing from the from the grid.
| 17:15.50 | chrissass | So so let me step back a little bit because I just kind of dove in based on where you were going and you know with the green and and and doing that. So so your your premise that from and kind of preparing with the show is you're focused a lot on what we can do in the eu for. Hydrogen I think is where where you're focused in in the near term and and you're going to be releasing a paper and talking about here in the next weeks to come um and and so go back to my opening statement. You know where I kind of said is this a solution looking for a problem. So. You know when when we had our guest on a few weeks ago. We we had a company that had hydrogen trucks and it was pretty sexy story and it had a hydrogen plant. It was green atoms you know electrons going all the way through the truck and it was doing all kinds of great things. Um, but it was a corner of case because we happened to be in Switzerland at the time and switzerland has ah a tax on diesel and makes the economics work. And I recall my guest or our guests sorry saying on the show that you know should we want to roll this over just over the board or just you know just few ki um pulling um kilometers away. Um you would need subsidies or something to make this work. And so I think from your perspective as well and and you talked about who your customer is and making policy and things like that. There's there's an angle to that so where do the economics start working because yeah you you talk about where. You know, having hydrogen should be and if you don't want to get the methane leak and you want to have all this and that you just produce it right in your backyard. You don't have long pipelines and things like that and that works really well unless perhaps maybe you live in germany or somewhere like that where it may be less. Well so maybe I'll let you talk from there and just kind of express where I'm trying to go here.
| 18:47.37 | Gniewomir | Well chris you've touched upon a number of different topics and I'll try to I'll try to address I tried I'll try to address them all asintly as possible. But I reckon the? Um, so so. Just to pick you up on this cost issue and it's true. Renewable hydrogen is not cost competitive today with the alternatives and the vast majority of the world now in Switzerland this is actually switzerland can be considered as as the what some of the best environment to make. And it. Ah it is render a unique ah environment to make the economics of Green hydrogen work because it has great. It has nuclear power but it has maybe even more importantly hydro which provides highcapacity factors to electroizers and as you mentioned for trucks. It has these special incentive or incentive taxes that. Tip the scale in favor of Green hydrogen now these factors are not present in most of the world and a lot of countries will struggle to find such a great hydro supply that Switzerland has ah so yes in the vast majority of the world renewable hydrogen. Requires subsidies and and the reason we are talking about renewable hydrogen is because as I mentioned it is the only hydrogen that is sustainable in the long run. So just to make it just to make this point that was so clear while stagora recognizes that blue hydrogen can be some sort of ah can be. Near zero carbon. It is not zero carbon so we don't see a large role for it by 2050. It is at best a transitory tool but it can be helpful when you consider the amounts of renewables that renewable energy that would need to be produced in order to make so. Fish and green hydrogen for all the uses where Green hydrogen is a good idea or even indispensable and that brings us to the I suppose to the to the applications that are suitable for Hydrogen. So there's a number of applications where. Hydrogen is the only um where Hydrogen is the only means of decarbonizing certain industry and this is not particularly important for industry applications in Industries such as steel such as fertilizers such as methanol and all the other different chemicals where Hydrogen is used at feast. Feedstock but there is also a number of other applications for example in transport particularly long haul transport that requires then high density fuels so that is aviation or shipping and in these sectors we're going to need hydrogen but perhaps not as hydrogen per se.
| 21:37.58 | Gniewomir | But as a building block of hydrogen-based fuels.
| 21:41.16 | chrissass | so so I get that and so maybe you could talk a little bit more about that specifically right? What? what? The building block is so so what I think I've heard you say and in a previous conversation with you in the past where there there's certain things that Hydrogen is not good at right I think agora and yourself would say hey let's not go heat your home with it because the the efficiency of getting green hydrogen to heat your home is probably not ideal that the the loss ratio between all the steps it just doesn't make sense. But what I I've you know I've heard you say hey industrial uses all day long long haul transportation all day long and then you know I guess maybe help me understand what the the feedstock is and what what it really is and what the market value is of that and what are we disrupting by doing that.
| 22:26.81 | Gniewomir | Right? Ah well I mean we're what we're really disrupting is the emissions currently in the chemical sector what we're using is gray ah gray hydrogen unabated hydrogen feedstocks and for instance in the steel sector steel is responsible for 7 percent of global emissions. So switching steel manufacturing processes from coking coal to Green hydrogen allows us to abate that now there is no business case for that today and that is because Green hydrogen is still too expensive that is that is because electrolizers are too expensive. And that's why we need policy support in in these sectors to bring green hydrogen essentially to cost parity with fossil fuels and I suppose the final message here is that yes we can you know on 1 hand so some might retort that. Oh well, why don't we let carbon pricing. Do it? well. Eventually carbon pricing will get us there but we're talking sometimes about carbon pricing to the tune of 3 hundred four hundred euros per ton of c o 2 but we need to make that switch over now because of the reinvestment cycles in industry.
| 23:40.50 | Johan | So if if I want to jump back a little bit to follow up on chris' questions in terms of what drives what the chicken and the- egg kind of a thing and if we look at if we look at the swiss example you know it's it's too small of a market. To actually make something out of it. Especially if you if you look at at the transport industry. But ah if Hydrogen is or green hydrogen in the long run and the 2 questions around this is kind of ah a way forward on heavy traffic or on airlines or or boats or anything else. But who drives this development because. Me it is I might be wrong here, but it feels like this is a decision made by the the the oems the automotive industry they will say you know this is most beneficiary for us based on the infrastructure that we can build based on the infrastructure that is provided and the price that we can get so. If Green hydrogen or hydrogen is not really available to the price with the infrastructure then sorry it doesn't matter how good it is. We're going to continue doing it in another way even if from an from an hydrogen point of view. It could be the best solution. So so how how does this work.
| 24:52.53 | chrissass | So are you asking automotives from the steel production point of view. Go on.
| 24:55.91 | Johan | No I'm I'm just thinking from from an industry point of view if we're supporting an industry. Let's say the automotive industry then how do we? How do we ensure that Hydrogen is not driven just because Hydrogen is a good solution because the decision might be taken. Elsewhere for example at the oems.
| 25:13.81 | Gniewomir | Right? Well you know what's what's good for the oes. It's not necessarily What's good. What's a good use of taxpayer money. So so in that in that regard this this is essentially the the crooks. Of the Agora no regret approach. This is this is why we went out and we surveyed all the sectors where Hydrogen is proposed and Hydrogen is proposed in many sectors as it is an incredibly versatile molecule. But when you look at. Ah, for example, Michael librii libbrakes. Um. Hydrogen ladder he has a really elegant way of presenting the uses so all the uses of hydrogen and he brings them from the ones where Hydrogen is essential irreplaceable and these are the feedsock applications where literally hydrogen is the building block and you cannot take it out of the equations. To uses such as hydrogen in a home heating where there are competing alternatives and where Hydrogen is 6 to 8 times less efficient than a direct so direct heating alternative through through a heat pump for instance, so the question of where to so so there is an opportunity cost. To making hydrogen policy because you can support the rollout of for example, Hydrogen fueled cars. But then you are subsidizing a solution that is now competing with a solution with another decarbonized solution that you've subsidized which is the battery electric vehicle. So we propose. To channel the subsidies in the sectors where we know direct electrification is not going to win but where green hydrogen still remains some competitive versus fossil fuels.
| 26:55.74 | Johan | Okay, that's an interesting response because that makes a little bit more sense where where we can if I understand the correctly then pinpoints the specific areass where where there's no alternatives and this will be the only feasible 1 to replace the fossil fuel because otherwise you know we have had this discussion I think we had it on the show before. Ah, elon musk we we talked a lot about Tesla comes out with his even the heavy trucks being electric battery driven versus hydrogen which he didn't believe in so there's always this ping ponging back and forth. But I think this was and it was quite of an interesting approach to it.
| 27:29.37 | chrissass | so so I guess in with the trucks you know from from reading some stuff you shared with me before the show I mean I think I think your view is that electrified trucks for short range may still make sense and longer haul stuff. Maybe hydrogen is I think what I you would tell me if I asked that is that correct.
| 27:45.30 | Gniewomir | Yes, that's correct and there is actually a very important point to be made here that was the majority of even heavy duty trucks will be what majority of trips and heavy duty trucks will be made by or are likely to be made. With battery technology and that is that is data coming from the iea which surveyed the oems and plugged it into their model. So was the majority of the strips might be made by battery electric truck heavy truck. You have to realize that. 80 percent. Yeah eighty percent and this is in the context of 80 percent of trips being shorter than four hundred kilometers the the other side of those trips. So the really long haul trips which which are over 500 kilometers will likely be made by hydrogen flugs and this is this is a good niche. For hydrogen trucks because these long trips require a lot of energy. So that means practically this means that we might not have as many hydrogen fuel trucks as their battery trucks but they will be essentially using the same amount of energy because they're just driving for longer distances so there will be.
| 28:56.20 | chrissass | So so but are you looking at the problem holistically because I mean you're already starting with the concept that it has to be a truck for long haul is is that the most efficient way to go over 500 kilometers to deliver something I mean you know if we have a blank slate right? and we're trying to save the world or whatever you think you're going to do here with your.
| 28:59.20 | Gniewomir | Yeah.
| 29:14.85 | chrissass | Energy policy is the truck. The solution.
| 29:16.80 | Gniewomir | Well, you know there are alternatives we can be. We can be using as as well boats where there are waterways or we can be using rail when it's possible, but a lot of fright and they you is carried by trucks and yeah.
| 29:32.37 | chrissass | Okay I was just curious I'm just curious because you know you're kind of looking at this holistically and I look at it holistically going. Okay, well yeah, there's a lot of trucks in the Us as an American it's It's just part of our culture right? The teamsters the whole truck culture is as an American thing.
| 29:33.12 | Gniewomir | It's it's just carried by trucks. So we are working.
| 29:48.63 | chrissass | But doesn't mean it's the most efficient way. In fact, there's shortages of drivers as we go forward. So finding people to drive those long haul trucks is also a problem. So. It's not just fueling them. But you need you know the way they work today and until you have a full autonomous truck and someone trusts that you have driver shortages so I was just curious on that. But. I don't want to belabor the point I get that that what I'm hearing you say is there's room in the world and the plan probably has for both The electrification is probably going to take place for anything four hundred kilometers or less more or less and then for the long haul where the efficiency and the energy gain is Hydrogen has a good use case in the business case seems to make sense with a little bit of. Regulation in there to make that make sense is what I I think you're you're telling me. So so let's change gears a little bit. Um, so we got this Hydrogen. We got to distribute it but you make it and so if it's green hydrogen you you may make it you know when when the green is good.
| 30:28.93 | Gniewomir | Yeah, that's so I feel I think that's a fair summary.
| 30:44.92 | chrissass | What do you do with the hydrogen until you need it like how do you store it.
| 30:46.48 | Gniewomir | Well, there is a number option to store ah hydrogen and really your storage option will depend very much on your use case of Hydrogen if you're if you're producing green hydrogen for the trucking sector. It might be okay to store it at a um in a number of. Highly pressurized tanks. Maybe even liquefy it and then for the reasons of distribution. But if you are imagining assist a power system in 2040 and this is what we're imagining. Yeah ago gora we see Hydrogen as an important way of ba of seasonally balancing european power sector. So if you're talking about taking excess energy in the sun and then using that excess energy in the summer and then using that energy and then wanting to shift that energy to the winter really pressurized thing just won't do it just you just you're just not gonna. They are going to become very expensive at the scale required. Fortunately in europe we have good geology so we are able to leverage or theoretically able to leverage leverage the cheapest form of hydrogen storage which would be geological storage in the form of Salt caverns. It is also possible to use depleted fields but Salt caverns actually offer the best economics and they are uniquely suited to seasonal storage.
| 32:13.48 | chrissass | So how does that work describe how you use a assault cavern.
| 32:16.99 | Gniewomir | Oh well. So um, so a Salt cavern is yeah a geological formation. It's quite inert you pump some push. Yeah, you pump some cushion gas. Well the cushion gas has to be the same as you as the gas you're using in order to retain its ah purity. Yeah, so you pump from cushing gas probably one third of the volume and then you pump in the hydrogen that you want to use so you you generate your hydrogen with electrolizrs you you pump it, you pump it into the soil caver and compress it and then you store it in the geological formation.
| 32:51.77 | Johan | Um, how much do you lose on the storage.
| 32:51.81 | Gniewomir | Um, till you need it.
| 32:51.97 | chrissass | And 2
| 32:55.24 | Gniewomir | Um, how much of that. Well the storage is quite efficient if you have a good salt cavern you shouldn't be able to lose much I suppose you do lose that that third of the volume in the cushion gas but ultimately. Um, if you imagine a salt cavern operating for 1020 years cyclingcycling cycling couple of tens of times per year the volume of the cu gases is very miniscule compared to the volume of hydrogen that you pump in and we're talking the. Just to give you a sense of skill. We're talking about you know gigawatt hours like Tens of gigawatt hours personal caing might have.
| 33:34.98 | chrissass | And so to who's doing this today is is you said theoretically. So when you say the word theoretically that sounds like ah not being done today thing.
| 33:44.50 | Gniewomir | Well so actually there is a salt caverns have been used for Hydrogen storage I believe they are used in the us. Ah, there is 1 salt cavern I e I'm not I don't recall if there is 1 in europe but it wasn't it wouldn't surprise me if there was. Um, however, sold caverns currently are used for natural gas storage. So that's where the fury comes from furrey comes from the fact that it's been already used. It's just not used on a large scale because we don't need that sort of seasonal hydrogen storage yet.
| 34:16.32 | chrissass | So 2 things that come to mind then is you you mentioned another problem statement that I think that the industry needs to overcome between now 202085 somewhere along the way is so we we still have gas pipelines. We still have gas other gas using the. Infrastructure that perhaps you would propose to to use for Hydrogen. How does that transition since and take place and and what are the economics of that transition. What? what forces us to stop pumping gas through that and and pump hydrogen let's say through a pipeline or using the storage facility that I'm using for gas to now store hydrogen what what changes is that what tips this.
| 34:54.73 | Gniewomir | Very difficult question Ha Well what tips the scale I suppose economically and this goes back to the question of subsidies and actually this comes actually this is the crookx of the hydrogen problem Currently, there is.
| 34:55.00 | chrissass | Gail.
| 34:56.12 | Johan | Um.
| 35:11.92 | Gniewomir | This is the chicken and egg problem that we don't have hydrogen users because we don't have Hydrogen supply. But the reason why these 2 don't work maybe is because we don't have a nest ergo the infrastructure to deliver the hydrogen from the optimal places to. To the places where the main users will be located so it is a big debate currently in europe. Okay, how do we? How do we get this hydrogen infrastructure started and the gas transmission system operators are saying look. We've got. We've got a great deal of assets on our hands that. We don't want to decommission or leave stranded just yet. So they're proposing to repurpose these assets and I'm hoping we get to repurpose the salt caverns. At least when it comes to the pipelines. Well the gasier source their reasoning is that approximate that repurposing them costs 1 carries One third of the cost of building new infrastructure. So there's the economics argument there for repurposing existing gas infrastructure then some independent analysis say well maybe. Maybe it's not 1 thirdred. Maybe it's a little bit more expensive fifty sixty seventy percent but it's still cheaper than building a new infrastructure so there is an economic argument for repurposing existing infrastructure. However, what worries me and it worries me deeply how are we going to and this touches on your question and. And it doesn't even answer your question chris but how are we going to stop using gas at the same time as we're going to start phas in hydrogen and in some places such as northwest europe where there are parallel pipeline networks where you have the high colorific gas and the low color colororific gas networks and. The low car lower gas networks are being phased out so you suddenly have capacity that you can convert to hydrogen. Okay, that works but actually there is very few places in or not very few but there's rather few places across europe where you have these parallel networks where you can take. Take 1 or 1 line offline. Um, and yeah, this question worries me and I don't think anybody has an answer to this.
| 37:30.24 | Johan | So out of curiosity and and when when when the discussions are are obviously ongoing in terms of building this infrastructure and and utilizing existing decommissioned or existing transformational infrastructure or building New. New 1 No matter what there will be a cost involved 1 way or the other and and just out of curiosity who in those discussions who takes this cost.
| 37:59.14 | Gniewomir | Yeah, another great question, Another great question that is currently being hotly debated especially in the gas in the gas circles. Um I So I suppose from the gas perspective from the gas operator perspective. They would love it to. Um, they would love the state to to just come in and shower them with subsidies somehow um our view is I suppose that the state should take a role should establish an entity and finance the infrastructure. Um. Yeah, the state should take a leading role in financing and actually planning and building this infrastructure because there is an incentive for Tsos to of course overbuild the infrastructure as yeah, overbuild their infrastructure just because that's how that's their business whereas the state can. More prudently take into account that no regrets demand.
| 38:58.50 | Johan | Um, but that's which is obviously 1 1 part of the discussion but would that work across the globe if you look at at some European countries. It might be easier with with the state has a biggest stake in infrastructure in general and and a major decision if we move across maybe to the Us I'm correct me if I'm wrong Chris. It's more of a privatized but even Europe is that as well where where maybe it's not as popular of of taking that cost centrally maybe in the new package of oh comes out now I don't know but is that also something that you see or is is still. This discussion is still up in the air and then kind of.
| 39:35.64 | Gniewomir | No, That's ah, that's an excellent question I believe in Europe Europe has the most advanced discussion on this topic but there are there are ideas in the Us Also to repurpose these pipelines I I'm actually not fully sure what? um. I haven't heard that much from the Us side on this topic. But yeah.
| 39:59.20 | chrissass | So so we've talked about storage we've we've talked about the economics a little bit. Um you know and and I think you talked about compression and and liqueification. Um, how does Ammonia play into this what what's the value in Ammonia in all this where where is that I know you mentioned it. But. Help me understand I'm kind of a newbie here.
| 40:19.74 | Gniewomir | Right? Well ammonia ammonia is't an interesting case because at 1 at 1 um, on 1 hand, it's a nore regret hydrogen use. It is you know fertilizer is going to be used in the future. It's an essential part of the. Of the commodity sector and of feeding the world. So it it and it produces 2 percent of current global carbon dioxide emissions. So it. It is essential to decarbonize it and there is really no other way to decarbonize it currently than with. Clean hydrogen. So as a commodity in its own right? It is a nore regret destination for hydrogen. But but what's interesting Ammonia is that it it is quite a good hydrogen carrier. It is and because it is used as fertilizer because the technology is perfected. We have all the we have the know how and we have the the expertise and actually many exporting and and this this is actually more important importing facilities across the world which has led the producers of Ammonia to propose that we use Ammonia as a hydrogen carrier because. Can embed hydrogen and ammonia and then on the destination using a little bit of heat or rather actually should I say a substantial amount of heat. Ah you can liberate the hydrogen from the Ammonia molecule and boom that there you have it your your hydrogen and the advantage of using Ammonia is that. It can be stored at minus 33 degrees celsius compared to liquid hydrogen which become compared to hydrogen with such which becomes liquid at minus 250 degrees cels use. So Ammonia is quite a ah bit easier to store significantly easier to store and. Because of that it's significantly easier to transport. Not to mention we are we already have the global supply chain for that. So this has led some to propose Ammonia as a hydrogen carrier the challenge of that is that the entire. Process of taking Hydrogen. Oh sorry taking renewable energy then converting it to hydrogen and then going through the Haber bosh process and then shipping that ammonia somewhere for it to be cracked back to Hydrogen. It's a lot of steps and each 1 of these steps carries a lot a significant. Energy penalty which is which is why we don't see Ammonia as a long term or at least ah ammonia hydrogen shipping through Ammonia as an efficient route of hydrogen supply which is we only see it as an intern solution when pipelines are still still not available.
| 43:08.64 | Gniewomir | But in the longer run It is pipeline transport that is ah cheaper that works out cheaper. Yeah, assuming you can get the pipeline but there is an important imperative to get the pipeline because if you are a.
| 43:15.20 | chrissass | So assuming you can get the pipeline right? assuming that it's free.
| 43:26.98 | Gniewomir | Say if you're a steel male and you know you're you're competing on a global level. Let's assume in 2040 that you're that the carbon border adjustment mechanism is in place and you're competing with others you want to get your hydrogen as cheap as possible. Or not even steel maybe steel is a bad example because the cost of hydrogen doesn't affect it. It affects it significantly but the cost of final product is is not affected that significantly. But for other chemicals this is very important the cost of Hydrogen is very important notably actually ammonia. But. Ah, but but yeah, you want to get you want to be able. Um for a successful industrial policy in your country. You want to be and to protect against carbon leakage. You want to be able to have the cheapest speed stocks available and this means accessing the cheapest possible hydrogen. And this is best done through pipelines so there is an imperative for the state or for nations that care about their industries to to do exactly that to make those pipelines happen.
| 44:32.72 | chrissass | So to go back to Johann's question in the beginning so looking kind of at you your professional career. You're clearly passionate about hydrogen your last few jobs have been about Hydrogen you're you're making bets on and your you're talking about 20402050 of where Hydrogen's going so so talk a little bit about but your experience in in the business. So you know you've gone out. You're you're clearly you joined a think tank. But I think you were doing education on Hydrogen in the past and things like that maybe tell us a little bit about your journey I mean I I get that you're you're not 18 and just diving into the industry. but I but I also get that that your your journey might be a little bit of interest ah to the audience as well is how you got here and how you got to be an expert in hydrogen.
| 45:16.46 | Gniewomir | Right? Where do I start? how far back do I go? Um? Well ah my background is as as a chemist I study medicinal chemistry at university college london and then I decided I I didn't I wasn't really too keen on pharmacology and that's where I picked up environmental. Um, you know I sort of became interested in atmospheric chemistry of what the environmental topic is quite interesting that led me to do a that led me to realize that well we are facing a climate problem and we are facing and and part of the problem. But sorry. The solution to that of course is deploying new technologies fossil free technologies but the problem is that these technologies are not seeing enough finance so that led me to pick a masters in climate change and finance at imperial college london and through that I got a. I was lucky enough to get a summer analyst placement at Investek which is an investment bank I had a fremont I did a fremont research project and this ah this is where it all started really I did a fremont research project comparing looking at the bat lines between hydrogen and competing technologies across. Ah. The different sectors so transportation heating and power and that led me that's my that was sort of my first encounter with hydrogen and that's when I realized that Hydrogen is being hyped up as the solution to decarbonizing transport but battery. It's already being taken over and by batteries and this was. In 2017 when I was looking at it and and the and the chasm just got wider since then but it did look to it did look to me as it as it might be important in in heating because of the difference in the heating profile in sorry in um. And sort of energy consumption in winter versus summer and the and the electricity profile pretty much stays relatively flat throughout the year but the heating profile ramps up the power demand from heating rams up 5 times in the winter. So at that time I thought that hydrogen would be a useful use. And the heating sector I definitely thought it was good use in the power sector to back up renewables and do seasonal shifting. Um, and then I spent 2 years working after after this I spent 2 years working with Michael librei and and yeah I spent 2 years working for Michael librii where we. Delve deeper into this story of Hydrogen eventually I just started I realized that there is not enough public info that that there are closed-door discussions at at closed-door discussions for stakeholders. Um.
| 48:04.63 | Gniewomir | Yeah for people for stakeholders and and the hydrogen economy but they weren't sharing the they weren't sharing the full picture of the world and yeah I did a lot of I started doing my own analytical work releasing it publicly on Twitter and. This led me to to to start ah and fruit twitter actually I got connected with a platform terra dot do where I started where we started together a course on the new Hydrogen economy. Um yeah I guess I guess from then on. I got so yeah, my um sort of my profile grew and I was I was able to I was I was able to connect with this fin tank in Berlin where I was already residing and and you know there rest as they say is history. However, what one last note I talked about Hydrogen. How I fought hydrogen was a good use in heating. Um, that was 1 of the mistakes I made early in my career I don't I no longer think think it is and good use for the heating sector.
| 49:08.99 | chrissass | Yeah I would say that was inconsistent with with your your company's current position if you if you'd let that go I would have called you on that. So so you you ended up in this think tank. So for our audience in the energy industry. What does an analyst or a person at think tank do that thinks about Hydrogen what? what is your. Job involved like what what does this think tank do around Hydrogen other than release papers saying hey to get there by 2050. These are things that might need to happen. What else are you guys doing.
| 49:37.68 | Gniewomir | While we're trying well we're trying to or we're coming up with policies to make it happen so we we care about Hydrogen we we recognize and we say this publicly that Hydrogen is part of the net zero story and since our mission is to get to net zero and to provide the. Evidence to policymakers to to provide evidence on the and the policies or rather to suggest policies backed by evidence to policymakers we we we review? Um, we reviewed the available evidence out there and this is this means looking at. Commercial commercial reports this means looking at at you know the the news and surveying the news looking at. For example, if shell says they're deploying electroalizer we try to figure out how much that electroalizer cost um and based on that we we agglomerate this data. We. Try to look for future trends and we try to make the policymakers aware of these future trends while suggesting policies that will be that will sort of ride the wave rather go it rather than going against it. So it.
| 50:46.50 | Johan | So I know we're coming sorry going.
| 50:51.13 | Gniewomir | Yeah, so so so essentially it's just it's it's some I would say half analysis and and have creative writing.
| 50:57.55 | Johan | So I know we're coming up a little bit of towards end of time. It's been really interesting I have I have a final question which probably could be a show on its own. So so true I'll see if you can answer it fairly short. But but coming back from your background and what you just described. We know the technology of hydrogen is part of of the carbon-free future but but in order to get this done and we've covered a lot of these different different areas in this today's show. There are so many stakeholders involved and and as ah as a. Ah, in your current role. Obviously you need to kind of touch base with all of them to make sure that this this ecosystem of stakeholders works what have been your biggest or large is kind of I won't say challenge but maybe surprise. In this ecoture in this kind of ecosystem of ah I didn't think about this. Maybe the technology was right? Maybe the politicians or the decision makers. The infrastructure was there scenarios where oh this is something I never thought about or this really came as a surprise good or bad.
| 52:03.79 | Gniewomir | Yeah I suppose something that ah you know waste to Hydrogen really and and closing more so sort of closing the circle on our agriculture emissions. We are so focused or or at least the world. Um, or maybe not even the word just the Hydrogen bubble is so focused on Green hydrogen and to a certain extent blue Hydrogen. We forget that there is that there is um that there are so many other ways of getting hydrogen and that those are for example, wastewater treatment or or agriculture or yeah closing closing the circle on on agriculture emissions or on agriculture feedstocks on biofeedstocks. This came to me as a big surprise that there are business models that are not yeah talked about but actually are more materially efficient and I would. And to to a greater degree involve um would even develop involve development like human development and creating more jobs and opportunities than a simple than a simple line manufacture manufacturing electroizers and I suppose. Um.
| 53:22.29 | Johan | Um.
| 53:22.37 | Gniewomir | Yeah, no, that's I landed there. Oh.
| 53:23.52 | chrissass | so so I think as as we wind up the show here. 1 thing I'd love to hear you talk about? is you mentioned in me in the pre-show that you've been writing a paper that. Coming out I think on the eighteenth of this month maybe you could give a little commercial for your paper because I'm sure our audience might want to know what it is and what you're releasing.
| 53:44.58 | Gniewomir | Right? So the paper is called twelve insights on hydrogen and it is a policymaker's guide to navigating the Hydrogen wave towards sustainable application and supply.
| 53:56.27 | chrissass | So so who should be downloading that and who who do you want to read that.
| 53:59.69 | Gniewomir | Everybody who's interested in Hydrogen should read it? Yes, yes, it will be. It's it's it'll be released public and if if you don't have the time to read it all while I'll be doing a Twitter summary as well.
| 54:03.35 | chrissass | And is it available to everybody. Will it be on youtube.
| 54:14.37 | chrissass | So just from my academic days. Is it. Peer reviewed your paper or is it just released from you guys How how do you make sure that it's in line with what that it's just not your your passion that's driving you that there's some peer review.
| 54:27.49 | Gniewomir | I suppose I I suppose it is my passion or rather our passion that's driving it what I work is. We don't have an official peer review process now. But but.
| 54:42.78 | chrissass | I wasn't trying to stopmp you I was just curious because you're you're putting out an authoritative paper and I just kind of like okay you want people to download it and take action and so I'd be curious.
| 54:45.60 | Gniewomir | Internally.
| 54:50.60 | Gniewomir | Yeah, yeah, yeah, well you know the paper has been reviewed internally by us. But if you don't trust us of course everything is sourced. Everything is transparent and if you join you know you? you can always ask me. Ah, question on Twitter about it and feel free to discuss it with me or challenge about and challenge our assumptions.
| 55:11.15 | chrissass | Awesome! Like I said I wasn't trying to stop you just just curious because I always like to know where my information's coming from and usually Johann's the hawk on the show that will say you know we who were follow the money where's the money coming for for these things is is kind of his his way of thinking. Um. I've really enjoyed the show I think you know I am at risk of saying that every show but the the journey through this conversation I think we covered a whole lot of ground in a very short period of time very efficiently you you give us concise answers and and you know I think the more I do this. The more complex. The problem gets you know the the more time you spend looking at let's say hydro in and specifics and the more guests we talked to that de hydrants and the the nuance and and the devil in the detail to make these things happen really becomes apparent and and why we need the dialogue so we can understand the hurdles. I want to thank you so much for being a guest It's been a pleasure to to meet you on the show and and share your thoughts with our audience. Any final thoughts you want to share with the audience before we sign off.
| 56:11.57 | Gniewomir | Yeah, no I just wanted to say thanks for having me on the show and yeah, read the twelve insights. It's I've been working on this since February I'm really proud of it and I hope you really enjoy it and that's it thanks a lot.
| 56:26.68 | chrissass | Well thank you again and for our audience out there. You spent another hour listening to insider guide to energy. We hope you've enjoyed the show as much as we have if you do enjoy the show. Please share the show if you're you're on Twitter and you're talking to our guests please mention us get us out there and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on Linkedin linkedin numbers are going up and up each week and the more you follow the better the guests we get and we keep the show going so we look forward to talking to you again next week