171 - The Future of North American Solar Manufacturing - An Interview with a Solar Pioneer

In this episode of the Insider's Guide to Energy, hosts Chris Sass and Jeff McAulay engage with Martin Pochtaruk to discuss the current energy transition and the electrification challenges and opportunities it presents. Martin sets the stage by highlighting the often-unnoticed but critical transition toward electrification, emphasizing Hellion's key role in this global shift. 

Throughout the episode, Martin delves into several crucial topics, including the latest advancements in solar technology such as bifacial modules and the advent of perovskite cells. The discussion also covers the strategic impact of U.S. manufacturing policies, particularly the incentives introduced by the IRA, and their effects on the domestic and international solar markets. 

Listeners will gain insights into the complexities of solar panel production, from cost analysis and market dynamics to technical specifications that influence the efficiency and longevity of solar modules. Martin also addresses the environmental challenges compounded by climate change, discussing the durability of solar panels in the face of increasing hail events and the importance of innovative materials to mitigate these effects. 

This episode provides a thorough understanding of how solar technology is evolving to meet the demands of modern energy consumption and the economic landscape shaping these developments. Tune in to explore the intricate details and broader implications of the solar power industry's response to an electrifying future. 

Subscribe and follow us on YouTube to engage further with the content. Post your comments and questions, and stay tuned for more insightful discussions on the Insiders Guide to Energy. 

Transcript

00:00:00 Martin Pochtaruk 

We're leaving the energy transition and we might not realise how important that is. 

00:00:08 Martin Pochtaruk 

The transition itself is walking through and towards electrification. The product Helian makes is a very engine of such electrification. 

00:00:14 

Location. 

00:00:22 Chris Sass 

Your trusted source for information on the energy transition. This is the Insiders Guide to Energy podcast. 

00:00:34 Jeff McAulay 

Martin. It's great to have you on the show and and get into this discussion for a lot of our listeners. They may not understand the the depths and the nuances within solar modules. In fact, I think many people think of it as increasingly a commodity. What are people listening? 

00:00:53 Jeff McAulay 

Missing if they're thinking about solar PV as a commodity. 

00:00:58 Martin Pochtaruk 

The volume that is being installed makes, I think that it is really massive value and it is a commodity, but you know, within commodities there are specialty products. 

00:01:10 Martin Pochtaruk 

And there are missions that require, you know, higher tension, higher efficiency, innovation. 

00:01:19 Martin Pochtaruk 

UM. 

00:01:21 Martin Pochtaruk 

It's not different than, you know, any other product, right? You might use butter every day. 

00:01:29 Martin Pochtaruk 

But you know, there's some butter that is different than others, and it might be organic, it might be salted, it might be, I don't know, made out of goat milk for the like this intolerance so. 

00:01:44 Martin Pochtaruk 

Any product that you use on a daily basis is at the end a commodity because you just purchased it. 

00:01:53 Martin Pochtaruk 

And it could be special or not. 

00:01:56 Martin Pochtaruk 

Install our you know the product we make, which is what transforms the light into electricity, has to be up there for 2530 thirty five years. So it is a bit special if you want the reliability and the quality of the product within it. 

00:02:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

So that it lasts that look. 

00:02:20 Chris Sass 

I guess this is as we talk about that and Jeff alludes a little bit to commodity and I get there's some differences. It would help me to maybe baseline what does a lot of energy cost if I buy a solar panel or how much is it a Watt? Is that how people judge solar panels generally? 

00:02:35 Martin Pochtaruk 

Yes it does. 

00:02:39 Martin Pochtaruk 

It all depends who's the buyer and how many you are buying. 

00:02:43 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right with the if you go to a Home Depot or any of those sort of box stores to buy one for, you know, your picnic or your body or your tent, you might pay 10 times what you know or more of what a company that buys. 

00:03:04 Martin Pochtaruk 

10s of thousands for a large solar installation so you know when we make and sell them by the 10s of thousands. So you know, in that type of volume, the price on a per Watt basis, you're talking about cents less than $0.50. 

00:03:26 Martin Pochtaruk 

In some cases, less than $0.30 per Watt. 

00:03:29 Martin Pochtaruk 

And the panel you know is over 500. So you end up paying 200 bucks for a module 250 bucks. 

00:03:39 Martin Pochtaruk 

But if you go and buy one again at a retail store, you might, you know, pay a. 

00:03:43 Martin Pochtaruk 

1000 so. 

00:03:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

Much more. 

00:03:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

That. 

00:03:46 Chris Sass 

And so I guess the the thing that's so unique and exciting to talking with you today is your North American production, right? So, so much of the news talks about China inundating our market and bringing solar panels in and low cost and then we have this IRA and a bunch of policy to get onshore production. So the one thing that was really intriguing when when you came up on our radar. 

00:04:06 Chris Sass 

Talk today was that you're producing these onshore. Help me understand what that means because you're you're actually speaking to me from Canada. I think you're a Canadian company, but you're manufacturing in North America and in the US, is that correct? 

00:04:10 Martin Pochtaruk 

We are. 

00:04:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

Alright. 

00:04:20 Martin Pochtaruk 

Yeah, we started manufacturing in Canada in 2010 and in the US in 2017. 

00:04:26 Martin Pochtaruk 

You know. 

00:04:27 Martin Pochtaruk 

I've been called many names throughout my long life, but one that I I like that you know, journalist in the US calls me is one of the originals and the originals because we've been around for a long time. So we are not by product or the Inflation Reduction Act. 

00:04:48 Martin Pochtaruk 

We've been here before. 

00:04:50 Chris Sass 

And and so I guess you're not a byproduct, but you're manufacturing in North America. You just recently announced using US cells, which is pretty interesting as well. So help me understand, I mean I think the IRA may not be your byproduct of it, but you're certainly gonna benefit from it. 

00:05:07 Martin Pochtaruk 

It is because it's helping the market grow. 

00:05:10 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right. When you look at the evolution of the US market in terms of demand, right, there was barely any demand at all before 20/10/2011 started very slowly, but you know growing 15 to 25% year over year. 

00:05:30 Martin Pochtaruk 

Up to 2022, that growth again continued very healthy in the you know plus 20% year over year. And what we have seen since the passage of the Inflation Action Act, that debt growth actually accelerated. 

00:05:47 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right. And from 2022 to 2023, that growth was? 

00:05:53 Martin Pochtaruk 

Much, much larger this year is expected to grow, you know, another maybe 25%. And the numbers now are. 

00:06:03 Martin Pochtaruk 

Making the US market the 3rd or the 4th market within the planet in terms of size. 

00:06:13 Jeff McAulay 

Talking about cost, there are incentives for domestic content. So the US manufacturing makes a difference. But I'm hearing that international modules are sometimes maybe half the cost. It's a big delta on a dollar per Watt basis. Does the math work? Does the domestic content adder actually make up for the cheaper international modules? 

00:06:37 Martin Pochtaruk 

It is. 

00:06:38 Martin Pochtaruk 

Like buying a pair of shoes, you need to find the one that fits your your foot. 

00:06:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right, so this is no different. It will work for some, it will not for others because it's not just the module. So to achieve domestic content. 

00:06:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

And be able to claim the 10% extra investment tax. 

00:07:02 

Rate. 

00:07:03 Martin Pochtaruk 

You need to have several things so. 

00:07:05 Martin Pochtaruk 

Is. 

00:07:06 Martin Pochtaruk 

Related to the cost that you were referring to. So the overall is not just the solar module, right? So the the entire capital expenditure of your investment has to contain more than 40%. 

00:07:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

Of cost coming from products made in the US produced in the US with the US components that's cost. But then you have to also have all of the steel in that installation made in the US in a port in the US and you have to pay. 

00:07:42 Martin Pochtaruk 

On your label. 

00:07:44 Martin Pochtaruk 

Above a certain threshold that is county related and is called prevailing wage. So you have to pay about prevailing without or above prevailing wage. You have all all three. So while the cost might work, you might not have the steel. 

00:08:03 Martin Pochtaruk 

You might be paying less on your labour, so you need all three. It's not. 

00:08:08 Martin Pochtaruk 

Either or is all three. 

00:08:11 Martin Pochtaruk 

That's why some for some people, we work for some people we'll know. So what ends up being is is a sort of a calculator. 

00:08:20 Martin Pochtaruk 

Where you have all of the hardware that the project requires, and if you achieve with all of it. 

00:08:28 Martin Pochtaruk 

Over 40%, which is the threshold that is required now, another threshold continues to increase year over year. 

00:08:36 Martin Pochtaruk 

And it will be. 

00:08:38 Martin Pochtaruk 

55% the requirement that threshold will be 55% in 2026 and beyond. So you need the module to be a part of that and everything else. 

00:08:51 Martin Pochtaruk 

With it. 

00:08:52 Jeff McAulay 

Quick follow up on that in terms of the the, the shoes that foot the foot, are the feet walking around are more than half of them. You think choosing the domestic content pathway or where where is the balance shifting? 

00:09:05 Martin Pochtaruk 

This project is project specific, right? So we have basically for the 50 clients that have been our clients for you know in some cases 14 years and in the majority 567 years. 

00:09:20 Martin Pochtaruk 

And these clients will have some projects that. 

00:09:25 Martin Pochtaruk 

Fit and some that do not. So it is project specific because for example you know projects have a certain amount of time to be built and you need to have them connected by a certain point in time. So for, you know, let's pick one thing. If you cannot find a transformer or that the transformer. 

00:09:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

That you can find it's going to take 18 months to show up, which is. 

00:09:50 Martin Pochtaruk 

Level the domestic Transformers. Then you resource to an important transformer and that might kill your calculations for the massive content. 

00:10:01 Martin Pochtaruk 

And that client might be, you know, one that 9 out of 10 installations are domestic, but the one where they miss or even transform it in time, that will not. So it is. 

00:10:15 Martin Pochtaruk 

Not only client specific, so is is the the food is not the client, the food is the project. 

00:10:24 Chris Sass 

Now you're making significant investment in US plant. So you're you're making a bet that this game changes is, is, is there going to be economies of scale to even that out or is the domestic production gonna always be there? What what's the long term, what you're thinking, what what changes in the? 

00:10:41 Martin Pochtaruk 

Future. Well, you know, we're always asking. We've been asked. 

00:10:44 Martin Pochtaruk 

Every time we make an announcement that really the announcement is we're doing this, we don't make announcements for the sake of announcements. 

00:10:54 Martin Pochtaruk 

UM. 

00:10:56 Martin Pochtaruk 

I'm always asking why a small company out of the middle nowhere continues to grow in a market that is so competitive when so many others have tried and died trying, and what I always say is that we're very cautious. 

00:11:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

In the growth that you're referring to, we don't bite something we cannot chew because if you bite something that is larger, you choke so. 

00:11:27 Martin Pochtaruk 

To your question, we serve a portion of the market that values what we have to offer. 

00:11:36 Martin Pochtaruk 

So we don't compete just on product price because if you do that then coming back to the first question in the conversation, you're making a commodity and that then you'll be competing face to face with imports just on price. 

00:11:52 Jeff McAulay 

So I love the dimensions of price in solar. There's dollar per Watt, but there's also LCOE. The Levelized cost of electricity, which is how much you get out. You hinted at that a little bit in terms of quality. One of the other things I'm starting to hear more about is bifacial modules. What does that trend look like from your perspective? 

00:12:12 Jeff McAulay 

We first just do a quick explanation of what bifacial's are and where you see that on the the trend line from the. 

00:12:15 Martin Pochtaruk 

Of course. 

00:12:19 Jeff McAulay 

Last 10 years. 

00:12:21 Martin Pochtaruk 

So you know, when you look at the last. 

00:12:24 Martin Pochtaruk 

30 years on in solar, right, solar cells are a slice of crystal, very thin, 150 microns that is chemically transformed so that that crystal when receives light. 

00:12:42 Martin Pochtaruk 

That thought on that light that gets in kicks. 

00:12:48 Martin Pochtaruk 

An electron inside of that crystal, there's electron moves and. 

00:12:53 Martin Pochtaruk 

Is captured on the surface. 

00:12:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

By let's call it a cable, right? It's very thin. It's micrometric, but let's call it a cable and it's taken. 

00:13:04 Martin Pochtaruk 

Out. 

00:13:05 Martin Pochtaruk 

So that's the electricity that will come out through the cable that is behind the solar module. 

00:13:14 Martin Pochtaruk 

Sorry, Kelly. 

00:13:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

And again, this is common sense. The light that hits the panel. 

00:13:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

Creates these elections. The elections are taken out, the light hits the front of the panel as you know it will hit your face if you are outside sunbathing. Same thing so. 

00:13:37 Martin Pochtaruk 

That is what historically has been. 

00:13:40 Martin Pochtaruk 

With a solar cell inside the solar panel bars. 

00:13:44 Martin Pochtaruk 

Around 2013, fourteen some companies started making solar cells that actually can capture. 

00:13:55 Martin Pochtaruk 

Light in the front and also on the back. And there's different cells, different technologies based on different wafers, the crystal. 

00:14:07 Martin Pochtaruk 

They they called by their type and some, you know, can absorb more like in in the back than others. But basically if you can absorb let's say 100% of the light in. 

00:14:20 Martin Pochtaruk 

The front the back. 

00:14:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

Will be a percentage of that 70 to 80%. 

00:14:26 Martin Pochtaruk 

The junction, which is a particular type, will be over 80%. 

00:14:30 Martin Pochtaruk 

So basically, these cells can capture light both. 

00:14:34 Martin Pochtaruk 

On the front and on the back. 

00:14:39 Martin Pochtaruk 

It won't capture any light in the back if that's solar modules against the roof or against the wall, because that the back will be, let's call it blind. But if you install it in a way that the module is just sitting and there is air in the front and in the back. 

00:15:00 Martin Pochtaruk 

Then. 

00:15:01 Martin Pochtaruk 

There will be direct exposure on the front and there will be reflection on the back and that is a is an effect. It's called albedo, that actually depending on the site. 

00:15:15 Martin Pochtaruk 

You will get, you know, from from nothing to 35%. 

00:15:20 Martin Pochtaruk 

Extra power. 

00:15:23 Martin Pochtaruk 

As being captured from the back of the module, so that is what is called by officiality because the cell has two faces and the module will have two faces. 

00:15:32 Martin Pochtaruk 

So this is a technology that has, I would say, been available industrially and installed around the world started. 

00:15:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

Slightly in 2018, we started manufacturing this in 2019 and now I would say 80 plus percent of the market, which is everything that is not on the roof. 

00:15:56 Martin Pochtaruk 

Uses bifacial modules. 

00:15:58 Jeff McAulay 

Wow. That is to hear that a new technology from 2018, I mean, this is 5-6 years now and is the majority of what you're saying is the ground mount. So not roof mount, but if it's on the ground and there's grass or dirt or something reflecting up to the back of that module that you'll get. 

00:16:18 Jeff McAulay 

Wow. So that's the majority of and that's like utility scale deployments, you're. 

00:16:24 Martin Pochtaruk 

Anything that is ground mount nowadays is very faithful. There's no reason not to, right? And this is the speed. Again, some people might be more familiar because we all have one close their hands on what? The cell phone. 

00:16:43 Martin Pochtaruk 

Technology has been and again, I'm old enough to remember the first cell phones back in the early 19. 

00:16:50 Martin Pochtaruk 

90S and you know, you had a cell phone and it was a box that looked like a car battery, right? And I remember people at the grocery stores actually having the cart just to put the phone in because it was super heavy. Right. And now, I mean, the things are. 

00:17:09 Martin Pochtaruk 

You know futuristic if you want to. So the speed at which technology changes and the speed at which we adapt and adopt technology is mind bending. So things like this that I'm referring to the officiality now not the phone. 

00:17:29 Martin Pochtaruk 

Do bro. 

00:17:30 Martin Pochtaruk 

Advancement and bring that you know levelized cost of electricity that you're referring to lower and lower to the point that. 

00:17:41 Martin Pochtaruk 

In most places in the world. 

00:17:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

Power generation with solar is cheaper than any other technology, particularly because the fuel. 

00:17:52 Martin Pochtaruk 

Free. 

00:17:53 Chris Sass 

So I guess we're talking about advancements the the one thing that that kind of comes to my attention, if we're looking at 2030 goals or the solar plus decade or whatever the, the, the agenda that that someone might have, we have a whole lot of solar to install over the next few years to. 

00:18:08 Chris Sass 

Get. 

00:18:08 Chris Sass 

There and every ounce of energy you can get out of a solar panel. 

00:18:13 Chris Sass 

Is less that you need to produce and make it more likely to get there. So do you see technology evolving when we get greater percentage of what we can out of a solar panels efficiency and have we seen gains there? Are we like are we the 28% these days or where are we at these days with these kind of efficiencies? 

00:18:24 Martin Pochtaruk 

It's happening, yeah. 

00:18:31 Martin Pochtaruk 

So. 

00:18:32 Martin Pochtaruk 

Industrial volumes right now of what is called PERC PEC, which is the type of cell where I was referring to types earlier, the type of cell that now has been 90 plus percent, maybe 95% of the market. 

00:18:48 Martin Pochtaruk 

In the last few years, it is around 22 1/2% conversion. 

00:18:55 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right. 

00:18:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

So what? Sorry, I'm a metric person I never understood and will never understand imperial measures. But you know A2 square metre, which is, let's say, the size of. 

00:19:08 Martin Pochtaruk 

A. 

00:19:09 Martin Pochtaruk 

Door that you have in your house, in between your rooms. 

00:19:15 Martin Pochtaruk 

A module that. 

00:19:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

Was two square metres back in 2010, was 270 or 275. 

00:19:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

A module of that size today will be 100% more. It's 500 and 45150 watts today, so that is the evolution that has happened in the last 1314 years. An increase in efficiency on a per square foot basis of 100%. 

00:19:40 Martin Pochtaruk 

That has happened. 

00:19:41 Martin Pochtaruk 

And you know, we see it right now in 2024. 

00:19:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

That the adoption of yet another type of cell, this is called N type cell or you know some might call it popcorn, which is a, you know, a development of the Fraunhofer, a German laboratory, you know, 10 years ago. So that technology that was developed 10 years ago now. 

00:20:05 Martin Pochtaruk 

This industry available for the world to use, and that this year we're seeing most of the manufacturers as included changed to this technology. 

00:20:17 Martin Pochtaruk 

And that is a seven, 8%. 

00:20:21 Martin Pochtaruk 

Gap change forward. 

00:20:25 Martin Pochtaruk 

Acceleration on efficiency so that 540 Watt module in A2 square metre that I was referring to will be a 580. So from 540 to 580 in the same space. So and that is happening right now right? So these things happen. 

00:20:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

Every six months there will be a chain. 

00:20:48 Chris Sass 

And does that change your production line so you're? 

00:20:48 Martin Pochtaruk 

For the Beckler, I'll change the change for the vector. 

00:20:52 Chris Sass 

That that, that's sounds very promising, but you're just putting a production line in for 2024 or whatever, how how does that evolution take place for a manufacturer for solar panels? 

00:21:02 Martin Pochtaruk 

So some things are easier to to put together than others. You know the the total cells have more. I was referring to earlier that the cells will have this these avenues, you know, cables micrometric lines that will capture the electrons and take them out. 

00:21:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

You know the the perks cell has 10 or 11 of those, the top one cells has eighteen of those, or sixteen of those. So you need to adapt. You need to change. You need to invest in your equipment so that. 

00:21:38 Martin Pochtaruk 

You can use the new technology. 

00:21:41 Jeff McAulay 

Speaking of new technology and and great shout out to Fraunhofer, I actually worked at Fraunhofer USA for many years and it's great to hear stories about early stage technology that is researched and then commercialised and put and put into practise. That's a a great story. 

00:21:58 Jeff McAulay 

What other technologies do you see coming into the market over maybe the next 5 or 10 years? We hear a lot about perovskites, but how do you see that on the horizon? 

00:22:11 Martin Pochtaruk 

We have been hearing about publicised for a while, right, and again the the IT is for sure. 

00:22:23 Martin Pochtaruk 

The next and upcoming. 

00:22:26 Martin Pochtaruk 

Gap change for the better, right? How fast that those you know, how can we call it layers or coatings of nano coatings of? 

00:22:44 Martin Pochtaruk 

Substances, in some cases organic is and places inorganic will be reliable in the long term. Is what still being work. 

00:22:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

So how do you apply a layer a nano coating of that type on a glass or encapsulant or something that is then laminated into the solar module so that there's no oxygen reaching it? Because when you laminate a solar module. 

00:23:16 Martin Pochtaruk 

You basically seal all of the components in between 2 layers that are not permeable. So basically when you look at your, let's say your driver's licence, right, it's laminated with it. 

00:23:28 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right. 

00:23:29 Martin Pochtaruk 

Is in between 2 sheets of plastic, so it's there's no oxygen reaching there, so you need that for peroxides. You need that for most solar cells because they are susceptible to humidity and oxygen. They will oxidise so. 

00:23:45 Martin Pochtaruk 

In the case of the next advancement which you mentioned you know persuades or. 

00:23:51 Martin Pochtaruk 

Symptoms like that. 

00:23:53 Martin Pochtaruk 

But still not entirely. 

00:23:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

Controlled is the evolution overtime and the ability to keep the properties of capturing the items from into electricity over 2530 years. So the the product reliability is still what is being worked on. You know we heard. 

00:24:18 Martin Pochtaruk 

5-7 years ago that. 

00:24:21 Martin Pochtaruk 

That was 5-7 years old and still today we're saying it's 5-7 years out, so it might happen earlier. It all depends. Who does you know the 1st. 

00:24:36 Martin Pochtaruk 

Big finding. So there are there are industrial products when you look at Oxford PV in particular, right. So Oxford PV as the name indicates has factor in Germany. I'm joking. So also previously has right now an industrial product. 

00:24:55 Martin Pochtaruk 

That is a solar cell with heterojunction based cell with a parasite layer on it. 

00:25:04 Martin Pochtaruk 

Production of these type of products still in this instance in terms of volume when you relate to the you. 

00:25:11 Martin Pochtaruk 

Know. 

00:25:11 Martin Pochtaruk 

Hundreds of megawatts that are made and installed worldwide in a yearly basis. 

00:25:19 Chris Sass 

Got it. 

00:25:20 Chris Sass 

Alright, well, as we get towards the tail on this show, I would love to find a little bit about your personal journey. So I'm I'm talking to you up northern Canada. You, you you are solar manufacturer, maybe you can share a little bit of how you ended up in this this business. It's a family business I understood. 

00:25:35 Martin Pochtaruk 

It is and it has been from the inception. Back in early 2010. 

00:25:42 Martin Pochtaruk 

I'm I I'm originally from Argentina. I work for an Argentinian multinational multinational. Sorry in the oil and gas services industry in the manufacturing, in different countries in the world of steel pipe for oil and gas extraction. 

00:26:03 Martin Pochtaruk 

So what I could say is that I contributed to polluting enough for 20 plus years that you know this gave me the opportunity to redeem myself and that sounds very good. But it's, you know, it's not necessarily true, it is true, but I entered into this. 

00:26:22 Martin Pochtaruk 

Because I considered it is a good big. It was a good business. And you know, among us and and reading, you know, it's very easy to to win the we can lottery when you have access to Monday newspaper so looking in retrospective it might have been too early. 

00:26:37 Martin Pochtaruk 

Right. So the investment into manufacturing for solar modules back in 2010, the demand was not there. The demand over, excuse me, the 2010 to 2015, sixteen period in North America was scattered was low. I was not predictable. 

00:26:57 Martin Pochtaruk 

As it is now, right, the consumption and the market is growing faster than we can keep up with it. 

00:27:07 Chris Sass 

Well, cool. I I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Sharing Your Journey and a bit about your company. Excited to see what happens with your developments here in North America. And to read more press releases and more interesting things that you'll be doing. Thank you for sharing with us today. 

00:27:24 Martin Pochtaruk 

Thank you for the invitation has been. 

00:27:25 Martin Pochtaruk 

A real pleasure. 

00:27:28 Chris Sass 

For audience, we hope you've enjoyed this content as much as we did, making it. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us on YouTube, add comments, ask questions, and we'll see you again next time on the insiders guide to energy. 

00:27:38 Chris Sass 

Bye for now.