166 - Unlocking the Power of Thermal Energy Storage: A Deep Dive into CSP and Long-Duration Solutions

In this episode of "Insiders Guide to Energy," we explore the pivotal role of thermal energy storage and Concentrating Solar Power (CSP) in achieving net zero emissions by 2050. The discussion centers on the advancements in long-duration energy storage, particularly focusing on thermal storage powered by CSP, an underutilized tool in the energy transition. Hosts Chris Sass and Jeff McAulay engage with Christie Obiaya, CEO of HelioGen, to uncover the challenges and opportunities presented by this technology.

The Current Landscape and Challenges:
The episode begins with an overview of the current state and growth of long-duration energy storage solutions, mainly focusing on batteries and highlights the untapped potential of CSP. It examines why CSP, despite its simpler and potentially more cost-effective nature compared to traditional photovoltaic systems, hasn't scaled as expected. The conversation delves into historical challenges faced by CSP, such as execution risk and commercial incentives, which previously hindered its widespread adoption.

Technological Innovations and Global Deployments:
The dialogue shifts to innovations in CSP technology, particularly focusing on advancements by HelioGen that enable higher operating temperatures and a broader range of applications, including industrial heat decarbonization. The global landscape of CSP deployments is explored, noting significant projects in regions like Dubai, South Africa, Morocco, Spain, and China. These projects leverage lessons learned to overcome past obstacles and showcase the growing confidence in CSP technologies.

Addressing Misconceptions and Market Potential:
The conversation tackles misconceptions surrounding CSP, particularly regarding its geographical applicability. The experts argue that the total addressable market for CSP is vast, especially in regions abundant in sunlight which are crucial for industrial activities like mining and manufacturing. They discuss the dual utility and industrial applications of CSP, emphasizing its significant role in decarbonizing energy-intensive industries.

Challenges and Future Directions:
The episode examines the ongoing challenges facing CSP, such as land use and public awareness. It emphasizes the need for an integrated approach to energy solutions, combining CSP with photovoltaic systems and other renewable resources to achieve a sustainable energy future. The discussion also highlights the importance of policies and incentives, such as the Inflation Reduction Act, in promoting the deployment of CSP technologies.

Personal Journey and Final Thoughts:
Concluding the episode, the speakers share their personal journeys into the renewable energy sector. They stress the importance of diverse experiences and multidisciplinary approaches in solving the complex challenges of the energy transition. The guests offer advice to aspiring professionals and students, encouraging them to embrace unexpected opportunities in the renewable energy landscape.

Transcript

Transcript 

00:00:00 Speaker 1 

It is already widely understood that in order to have a shot at hitting net 0 by 2050, long duration energy storage will have to be part of the equation. 

00:00:09 Speaker 1 

Although battery deployments are the most prevalent form of long duration energy storage today and projected to grow nearly 30% year on year for the next decade, the single most underutilized tool in our energy transition toolkit is thermal energy storage. Charged by next generation concentrating solar power. 

00:00:30 Speaker 2 

Broadcasting from Washington, DC, This is insiders guide to energy. 

00:00:46 Speaker 3 

Christy, this is really exciting to hear. As a longtime energy nerd, I have to ask you, though, about CSP. This is a technology that's been around in some ways. It's simpler. 

00:00:58 Speaker 3 

And should be more cost effective than traditional silicon PV, but yet it hasn't really scaled in the way that PV has. Over the last 10 to 20 years. Help us understand why that's the case and what's different now with heiligen. 

00:01:14 Speaker 1 

I'm so glad you asked that question. I think CSP in the US was launched in the early 20 tens at least. That's when the big project started getting underway. And then like you said, it quickly fell out of favor. But I would argue that the reasons that it fell out of favor are no longer valid. And you can see that in the fact that countries. 

00:01:34 Speaker 1 

All over the world are actually deploying CSP. They've taken the lessons learned and they've been deploying at scale in many ways over the last couple of years. So the first reason why I think it fell out of favor was execute. 

00:01:47 Speaker 1 

Vision risk a couple of the projects that were deployed faced challenges in the way that they are rolled out and that's I mean that's typical for any project that is getting rolled out at scale for the first time, right. But if we, if we quit after the first PV project, PV might not have taken off, right. And so I think you know in the last decade, the countries that have continued deploying. 

00:02:08 Speaker 1 

DSP like, you know, Dubai, South Africa and Morocco, countries in the Middle East and North Africa, Spain and now China, China is deploying CSP all. 

00:02:18 Speaker 1 

The place these countries have taken the lessons learned, and so you know, the stories that people might remember about OK, failure of tanks with molten salt storage and those kinds of things, those have technical solutions that have been successfully executed now. And so that's 11 retired risk that I think we can we can step away from and just make sure that we're using. 

00:02:38 Speaker 1 

Best practices and lessons learned. 

00:02:40 Speaker 1 

I would say the second reason it fell out of favor is commercial incentives. If you recall back, you know 10-15 years ago the US energy market, really global energy markets, there wasn't really a consistent commercial incentive for long duration energy storage and CSP. The sweet spot for where CSP. 

00:03:00 Speaker 1 

Reforms from a cost standpoint is leveraging long duration energy storage with thermal thermal storage. 

00:03:07 Speaker 1 

And so if you think about the way that utility incentives were structured back then, it was basically up to four hours. And so it really incentivized PV battery and that kind of deployment. Now when you think about what's possible, the PV battery solution is not as cost effective above long long durations. 

00:03:26 Speaker 1 

Like 8 hours, 10 hours and that's really the sweet spot where you can combine CSP and PV and thermal energy storage for a killer combination. 

00:03:35 Speaker 4 

When we're talking thermal energy storage, what kind of temperatures are we talking? 

00:03:41 Speaker 1 

It's a pretty broad range, actually, and so I would say the typical CSP including the large scale deployments that have been successfully commissioned and are now operating operate anywhere in the range from 100 up to 500 or 600°C. And so at Helio Gen. 

00:04:01 Speaker 1 

We're able to deploy that scale and that type of temperature with what's already been proven and demonstrated at commercial scale. You know, high technology readiness. 

00:04:09 Speaker 1 

Level, however, we're also working on next generation storage, which has the capability of achieving much higher temperatures in excess of 1000°C and that opens up a whole new set of markets like high temperature processing cement manufacturing, steel manufacturing, those kinds of things. 

00:04:31 Speaker 3 

So I understand that's why you're leading with the storage pitch, because that's one of the biggest differences. Now that the capacity, the flexibility, is more valuable than it was 10 years ago. So that makes a ton of sense. The other thing that you're highlighting is previous CSP deployments were really utility scale and it seems like you're targeting. 

00:04:43 

Absolutely. 

00:04:52 Speaker 3 

When you talk about industrial heat that it's almost a behind the meter CSP. 

00:04:58 Speaker 3 

Is where where is the focus. Is it utility scale or is it industrial behind the meter? 

00:05:04 Speaker 1 

It's both and it's it's certainly not residential or small commercial scale, but both utility scale and behind the meter industrial are areas where this technology can perform well because of the fact that you tend to need to support around the clock operations in both cases and they're at a large enough scale that you start to get the. 

00:05:25 Speaker 1 

Economies of scale and the benefits of deploying CSP. 

00:05:32 Speaker 3 

One of the other textbook challenges I remember for for CSP is also the need for direct rather than diffuse light. So you mentioned it's being deployed all over the world, but these are the very very sunny, arid climates. So if you have that as a geographic constraint and you also are targeting. 

00:05:52 Speaker 3 

Specific industrial verticals, does that limit your deploy? 

00:05:57 Speaker 1 

You know, it's an interesting question. The short answer is no, because we have a we have a huge total addressable market because if you think about where a lot of the world's mining operations, manufacturing facilities, those kinds of things are deployed, there is plenty of that above and beyond around the equator. And so you look at places. 

00:06:16 Speaker 1 

Like you know, the US Southwest and Mexico where near shoring is becoming a. 

00:06:20 Speaker 1 

And the Middle East, North Africa and South Africa, South America, you know, there's so many mining operations in Chile where you have the highest direct normal irradiation possible. These are all areas where solar concentrated solar can work very well. So yeah, I don't think we're constrained from a total addressable market perspective even though it is a different type of solar. 

00:06:42 Speaker 1 

Versus what PV uses. 

00:06:45 Speaker 4 

And where are you beginning? Where are you? Where are you putting your early efforts? 

00:06:49 Speaker 1 

Yeah, a couple of initial target areas. Our strategic geographic targets include the US so that kind of desert Southwest area, particularly in the Arizona and New Mexico type area. 

00:07:00 Speaker 1 

And that's, you know, sparked further by things like the Inflation Reduction Act, which we have disproportionate access to as a company that is not only in solar also has thermal energy storage. We have our own manufacturing of the mirrors in the US and we can provide the clean power that supports the green hydrogen. And so all these different things. 

00:07:20 Speaker 1 

And be very supportive of deployments in the US. The other areas that we're that we're looking at. 

00:07:26 Speaker 1 

Our Australia, we have a partnership with Woodside Energy, which is the largest energy producer in Australia, and they're working with us to bring our technology into that country in Chile, which as I mentioned, because of the kind of behind the meter opportunities for mining and and the strong irradiation there provides a good target. 

00:07:47 Speaker 1 

For us. And so those are really the the areas that we're focused on. And we also recently announced a joint development agreement with. 

00:07:53 Speaker 1 

A partner in Mexico who will be helping us deploy there based on the fact that manufacturing operations are expected to grow significantly there and many of the companies that are deploying manufacturing there have made clean energy commitments. 

00:08:08 Speaker 4 

Going back to the storage side of this, you said long term long duration storage help me understand your definition of long duration storage and what that means. How do I get this? This solar asset, you know that I've heated up back into electrons? 

00:08:24 Speaker 1 

Yes, absolutely. So anywhere in the realm of, you know, 10 hours plus or minus several hours is is kind of the realm that we're often asked to provide proposals on. And so it is, it is beyond what is typically considered for PV battery applications. And then in terms of how the electrons or the heat. 

00:08:44 Speaker 1 

Goes from place to place. We start with a essentially a traditional CSP configuration with a field of Mira. 

00:08:52 Speaker 1 

And that field of mirrors will point the Suns energy to the top of a tower and that's why we call it concentrating solar power. And so at the top of the tower, there can be all kinds of different forms of heat transfer and thermal energy storage. The most prevalently deployed form today is molten salt. Lots of commercial. 

00:09:12 Speaker 1 

Operational data and that sort of thing with molten salt already. And then what we're using in our next generation development of our our future large scale higher temperature product is. 

00:09:25 Speaker 1 

It's a bauxite particle, bauxite being a precursor to aluminum. It's essentially a solid particle that has capacity to retain heat at higher temperatures than what molten salt can do. And so it opens up avenues of industrial heat decarbonization at higher temperatures, as well as things like being able to use this technology for novel. 

00:09:45 Speaker 1 

Turbines that have higher efficiency than traditional steam turbines. 

00:09:51 Speaker 3 

Very cool. So how do you think about the cost in a traditional electricity generation regime? You've got LCOE. Do you, do you levelized cost of steam? Is there a unifying metric that you use to compare? And then on that metric, how much better are you than the alternative solutions? 

00:10:11 Speaker 1 

Yeah, one one of the things that we've observed is that. 

00:10:15 Speaker 1 

It's most helpful for for customers and for people that are already in the industry to use metrics that they're familiar with. You know, you have to kind of bring the terminology to what they already. 

00:10:25 Speaker 1 

Understand. And I think you know, a disservice has been done to this part of the industry. You know, CSP and long duration storage, because if you look at any third party published report, it is really hard to find any kind of data that looks at an LCOE for duration of storage greater than four hours. And so we've been trying to levelized a playing field. 

00:10:46 Speaker 1 

Because if you compare apples to apples. 

00:10:48 Speaker 1 

Of other forms of storage at you know durations of, say, 10 hours. That's where you really start to see the L Coe beat alternatives. And when we talk about alternatives, the alternatives can range from other renewable energy technologies to fossil fuels, like one example for an off grid mining company is. 

00:11:08 Speaker 1 

You know, they're trucking in diesel 350 trucks a day and that becomes very expensive and they have an opportunity to decarbonize. And so those are the types of opportunities that we can prioritize as we drive down the cost curve towards our target of $0.05 per kWh for long duration storage. 

00:11:25 Speaker 4 

So assuming you get the cost to where your targets are, I I want to go back to something that Jeff asked you about in the beginning about direct Sun and I want to bring in climate change because there there are theories that solar is going to have some differences in the future. So how is climate change going to impact? So let's say you set this up in the American South. 

00:11:45 Speaker 4 

Tests and things change. What do you anticipate? 

00:11:48 

So. 

00:11:49 Speaker 1 

So one of the things that we do, we have a we have a a tool that focuses on how helping us site our projects essentially and you know of course looking at the overall D and I the direct normal irradiation is one of the most important factors in sighting the project. But you can be within a range of. 

00:12:09 Speaker 1 

You know, plus or minus. 

00:12:10 Speaker 1 

This, you know, 1000 DI, that kind of thing and still have an effective project. And so certainly you know scenario analysis that take into account what what the change could be. Those are the kinds of things that we expect on our operators to want to move towards in the future, not just limited to us but that that would apply to anything you know whether it's wind or solar or other renewable energy sources. 

00:12:31 Speaker 1 

The other thing that I would say is one thing we haven't talked about yet is heliocentric to CSP is really the application of software and artificial intelligence in improving the pointing accuracy of the mirrors on onto the tower. And so that's one of the things that historically was a challenge in CSB and something that Helio Gen. 

00:12:53 Speaker 1 

Has solved and it's a way that we're enhancing this technology that already exists. 

00:12:59 Speaker 3 

I was waiting for when we were going to get to the AI piece, which is is great to understand. Help me understand. You mentioned the sizing. Is there a modularity? Is this a one-size-fits-all? Can you scale up and down depending on the use case? 

00:13:14 Speaker 1 

Yes, absolutely there and and in general, we do see that there is a modularity because there are certain constraints that make it better to be somewhat smaller and more modular than the historical mega scale deployments of the past. In terms of a per tower field size. 

00:13:32 Speaker 1 

For example, there are certain thresholds you know, say above 300 feet for example, that it becomes more difficult to cite projects with Federal Aviation Administration and those kinds of of thresholds from a permitting perspective. But also there's the fact that in general modularity is a. 

00:13:52 Speaker 1 

Trend that has been increasing in the construction industry for all sorts of capital. 

00:13:57 Speaker 1 

Projects and the more you know my my background coming from the construction industry prior to coming here to Helios Gen. is observing that the more you can do to design with the end in mind and to simplify the work that's actually done in the construction field, the greater certainty of outcome that you can have on schedule and. 

00:14:17 Speaker 1 

Cost and performance of the project. 

00:14:22 Speaker 4 

Go into costs and in considerations you you talked about the IRA before and in our pre conversation I recall you talking about a lot of countries had a lead in this technology. You mentioned China in this interview you've mentioned some other European projects. Where are this supply sourced from and how does this align with the the? 

00:14:42 Speaker 4 

You know, energy independence kind of strategy. 

00:14:45 Speaker 1 

Yes, great question. So one, one of the benefits of our technology and the way that we're managing our supply chain is we don't actually source a lot of components from China. We have, you know, well under 10% of our total components sourced from there. And we do as much as possible leverage domestic content. 

00:15:04 Speaker 1 

So we assemble our mirrors in Long Beach, CA and we've designed that facility such that it can be modular, hasn't taken elsewhere for efficiency purposes. Once we have a critical mass outside the US from a project person. 

00:15:21 Speaker 1 

But from a from a sourcing standpoint, that is one of the ways that we plan to leverage the benefits of the Inflation Reduction Act is is through domestic content and like many others, we are also still waiting for further clarity on how some of those rules get interpreted and applied. But it is something that we're very optimistic for and. 

00:15:41 Speaker 1 

We could definitely see the the transition in in deployment deployment intent of owner operators and customers. Once the IRA was first announced in late 2020. 

00:15:54 Speaker 3 

Sticking with the the cost theme, are there economies of scale as you increase increased deployments, we've seen that being a huge impact in in solar. Is that the same thing here and at what range does that start? So are all of these mirrors the same size regardless of the size of? 

00:16:14 Speaker 3 

Of project and then help help us with the you mentioned 300 feet as a tower size. So what is your unit deployment? Is it a 10 MW? And again are you using thermal or electrical? What's that kind of modular increment of size? 

00:16:30 

That's. 

00:16:30 Speaker 1 

Yeah, something in the range of of 50 megawatts tends to be better than say, you know, 5 megawatts. And certainly from a a mirror size, we've taken a slightly different approach than historical CSP deployments. If you remember, the CSP deployments of you know 10 to 15 years ago. 

00:16:51 Speaker 1 

The mirrors were. 

00:16:52 Speaker 1 

Often the size of tennis courts and they had multiple facets. 

00:16:55 Speaker 1 

And one of the one of the findings was that it's easier for those mirrors to become out of focus more quickly. And so with the software where we're able to control every single mirror accurately with a closed loop feedback system between cameras at the top of the tower and our our heliostat field, we're able to get much more accurate pointing of the mirrors. And so our mirrors are actually. 

00:17:17 Speaker 1 

Pretty much the size of of PV panels that you might see on. 

00:17:19 Speaker 1 

Someone's house. 

00:17:23 Speaker 3 

Great. That's very helpful. Have we discussed any, are we missing any challenges we've we've talked about, you know, direct installation, we've talked about modularity, economies of scale, the pointing challenges, what haven't we discussed that have been holding back CSP that you're innovating around? 

00:17:41 Speaker 1 

I think one thing is actually awareness. 

00:17:44 Speaker 1 

Of some of the solutions that have already been identified for CSP and some of the things that held it back from deployment before, and so we're absolutely on an awareness campaign. 

00:17:55 Speaker 1 

You know, especially in the US, but also elsewhere. And so anyone who may have read about or been aware of challenges of the past or not appreciated the fact that now we have this need for long duration energy stores that did not exist or wasn't appreciated before. We have a huge opportunity to leverage this underutilized tool which is. 

00:18:15 Speaker 1 

Thermal energy storage charged up by CSP. 

00:18:21 Speaker 3 

So what one more I'm thinking of is just land use and so you know you mentioned a lot of these are remote and the ability to have really off grid power and storage. The only other alternative in a lot of those cases is diesel and even with other technologies it's really hard to get up to the higher temperatures. 

00:18:40 Speaker 3 

But it it does seem like you really need open flat ground rather than a rooftop system. So is that a constraint or not yet in the beachhead market? 

00:18:52 Speaker 3 

Targeting. 

00:18:53 Speaker 1 

It is a factor and it is one of the things that we look for when citing projects and so certainly to the extent that we have an industrial heat project, we look for adjacent land next to that project. But in general, we find that there are quite a lot of Greenfield open spaces in places that have high DNI. 

00:19:13 Speaker 1 

And so we do find that there's good overlap in general there there are some. 

00:19:19 Speaker 1 

Use cases that are more difficult because of the need for land. For example, you know food processing which also which often takes place in more urban areas that would not be always a good candidate for us because the urban areas don't allow for enough space. But that challenge would also exist with you know many other. 

00:19:38 Speaker 1 

Forms of renewable energy, too, and so we do use comparable land to in, in, in many cases even less than a PV battery installation for example, and so land is is a challenge. I think that's not unique to us. 

00:19:53 Speaker 4 

So how did you end up getting into this space? You you mentioned a little while ago you started in the construction industry. You gave a little bit of background, maybe it's worth a little bit of your personal journey. 

00:20:02 Speaker 1 

Yeah, sure. So I'm a chemical engineer by training, and that was a long time ago, though. So I haven't opened up the books in a while, but I think as as you both are aware, it does help with, you know, fluency and and understanding the industry and and that sort of thing. And so my journey was when I started out as a practicing chemical engineer. 

00:20:23 Speaker 1 

You know, I I had an interesting experience traveling the world and deploying new product scale ups in facilities for multinational consumer goods company and it was actually a a visit in 2006 to my father's hometown in Nigeria. And just having the direct perspective. 

00:20:43 Speaker 1 

On the constraints to economic growth and development that occur with lack of access to clean, renewable power that sparked my interest to transition industries. And so that was when I made the the shift into into. 

00:20:56 Speaker 1 

In energy and I've spent most of my career now since then in renewable energy and infrastructure and those kinds of things. 

00:21:05 Speaker 3 

I want to highlight though it's Bechtel, you spent a decade and that is one of the largest, most of when there's a big complex project, they're the leaders in the world for getting it done. So I really want to hear more. 

00:21:20 Speaker 3 

About that experience, because very few innovators in this space truly know what it takes to get complex projects built. What were some key lessons that stuck with you in that decade of experience? 

00:21:35 Speaker 1 

Yeah, that's that's spot on. It is an underappreciated fact that execution is often what makes the difference. 

00:21:43 Speaker 1 

And so certainly having had that, that that 11 years at Bechtel was a very impactful experience for me. I mean it's a, it's a world class company and one of the things that I appreciate that they prioritize in anyone's career trajectory is getting boots on the ground construction experience, the most learning that I had while I was there was actually when I was. 

00:22:04 Speaker 1 

Deployed to a construction project in Baytown, TX. 

00:22:07 Speaker 1 

And when you see the challenges that occur on a construction site, you you more deeply appreciate the importance of this concept of, you know, measure twice cut once the idea of designing with the end in mind the challenges around you know things that you might think to optimize for that don't turn out. 

00:22:27 Speaker 1 

That way, in the construction field, all of these lessons learned were really pivotal in some of the things that I look for when you know, looking to build talented teams. And I do think that. 

00:22:39 Speaker 1 

You know, we shouldn't throw the baby away from the bathwater. I think it's often overlooked that because the oil and gas industry has been a major contributor to climate change, we got to look elsewhere for solutions. But that industry also has an incredible pool of talent and expertise that is absolutely reapplication to renewable energy. 

00:22:55 Speaker 4 

Now as we talk about renewable energy, there's no one silver bullet. In my opinion, there's gonna be lots of solutions and. 

00:23:01 Speaker 4 

This doesn't seem to cover everything. It covers a very specific point. Where will this end up going? Where? Where do I anticipate seeing this in a few years from now? So let's assume you get your next generation. You get the kind of energy you want. 

00:23:15 Speaker 4 

Where should I expect to see you and how will you play in the ecosystem of the future? 

00:23:19 Speaker 1 

Yeah, I think that this will be one of the all of the above solutions. I think you know to solve this this challenge, which climate change is arguably the biggest challenge of humankind and of our time in order to solve that, we will need all of the above approach and many of our customers have actually told us that. 

00:23:39 Speaker 1 

They see us as part of an overall solution as well. In fact, our current offering is a combination of CSP plus off the shelf PV. You know, no innovations from PV perspective and thermal energy storage and that turns out to be a killer combination. I think you start to see more of that in. 

00:23:58 Speaker 1 

That micro grid trends in the way that projects are being planned, where they might combine solar and wind. And so I do think that the ecosystem, the energy ecosystem of the future will include many of the tools that we're all working on now. And so I look forward for Helio Gen. to be part of that overall solution for climate change. 

00:24:20 Speaker 3 

We have to give a shout out to your roots at MIT. Undergrad and grad school, and of course the MIT Energy Club and Conference, which you contributed to. We had another industrial heat decarbonization, MIT LM. This was completely unintentional, by the way. 

00:24:40 Speaker 3 

You know, we we found you for your achievements and then you just so happened to have done that as well. Any origin stories there or or things that you keep with you now over a decade plus since then that you can trace back to those roots. 

00:24:56 Speaker 1 

Yeah. One of those things would probably be that I think. 

00:25:02 Speaker 1 

It's the case that in order to solve tough problems, you have to have diversity of all forms. You have to have different perspectives and experiences to drive innovation, and that was my experience at MIT, and it also has been, of course, proven out in studies of top performing companies. So I would say that the kind of multidisciplinary approach that MIT takes to solving problems. 

00:25:23 Speaker 1 

Of the energy transition is something that I've absolutely taken with me and appreciation for looking for talent that comes from different backgrounds. 

00:25:32 Speaker 3 

And for those listeners who might be currently in undergrad or grad school, thinking about how to get engaged on on campus or where they might want to go with their careers, what advice do you have for them? 

00:25:45 Speaker 1 

I would say say yes a lot. You know, I think there's a lot of interesting opportunities that upon first glance might might seem like something that you know wasn't on your five year timeline or you know wasn't wasn't something that you learned in class, but some of the some of the most impactful and rewarding experiences of my career. 

00:26:05 Speaker 1 

Have been when I said yes to an unexpected opportunity. 

00:26:09 Speaker 4 

Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I enjoyed finding out more about what you're doing. I want to thank you so much for being on the podcast today. 

00:26:18 Speaker 1 

Thank you so much for having. 

00:26:19 Speaker 1 

Me this has been great. 

00:26:20 Speaker 4 

For our audience, we hope you've enjoyed this edition of the Insiders guide to Energy Podcast. If you have, don't forget to subscribe. Follow us and we'll see you again next time on the insiders guide to Energy podcast. Bye bye for now.