164 - Charging Into the Future - Inside Li-Metal's Battery Breakthrough with Srini Godavarthy

The next generation of battery technologies (solid state batteries) are critical for the mass adoption of electric vehicles. Both mileage and affordability are driven by battery technology. Dominated by China, these factors have been putting barriers on the west. Even with the IRA, the USA is missing a step between mining to battery production. The cost to bridge this gap is huge, and it requires a lot of investment, effort and willpower, and the biggest hurdle is that we do not have enough lithium to support the vehicle growth targets that exist today. We discuss this and more in our captivating episode on Insider's Guide to Energy, with Srini Godavarthy, the CEO of Li-Metal. 

Srini's journey from the oil and gas sector to leading a cutting-edge renewable energy company illustrates a profound commitment to sustainable energy solutions. His work at Li-Metal is not just about enhancing battery performance; it's a quest to address some of the most pressing challenges in the EV market, including range anxiety and the environmental impact of battery production. 

Throughout the episode, listeners will be treated to a deep dive into the intricacies of battery technology, from the limitations of traditional graphite anodes to the exciting possibilities offered by lithium metal. Srini explains the technical hurdles Li-Metal has overcome and the company's innovative approach to reducing the carbon footprint of battery manufacturing. 

We also touch on the broader implications of Li-Metal's work for the global energy transition. As the demand for EVs continues to grow, the need for high-performance, environmentally friendly batteries has never been more critical. Srini offers his insights into the future of the battery industry, discussing upcoming advancements and the role of government policies in supporting sustainable innovation.  

Join us on Insider’s Guide, as we take you on a journey through the cutting-edge of battery technology, offering a vision of the future that is both exciting and attainable. 

Transcript

00:00.00 

chrissass 

Welcome to another edition of Insiders Guide to Energy! This week we have the CEO of Li-Metal, Srini Godavarthy on the program, and he’s going to talk about the significance of Lithium, and how Lithium can be used to transform how batteries are made today. Just imagine changing anode and cathode technologies and getting more performance and lighter batteries, and this is going to change EVs dramatically. They’re well underway to building this technology today, but once we have that where does this all go? What is the future for lithium batteries and beyond? So, Srini’s going to take us there as well. So, sit back and enjoy another great episode of the Insiders Guide to Energy with Srini Godavarthy from Li-Metal! 

07:50.83 

Jeff McAulay 

Srini Welcome to the show. We're really excited to have you here. We're talking about Lithium metal. So first off in the context of Lithium-Ion batteries. Why is lithium the element. That's so important. 

08:03.87 

Srini 

Look Lithium is the lightest element that you have ah and is the key to carrying the charge in your battery. Um there,. There's so many other technologies that are being developed out there. But. The key is the weight and the volume and the energy that the battery brings ah for a given specific gravimetric and volumetric energy density. Ah so ah, the one that offers you the lowest ah mass. That energy density is a lithium ion the more lithium there is a set amount of lithium that you can put in a battery before you destabilize it right today. Most of that comes from the cathode ah and the cathode and the anode are 2 cages that you have. That the lithium goes from one end to the other as you charge the battery. Ah the cost of a battery now really comes from that cage right? You cannot take the lithium out but you can make the cage cheaper and that is where most of the optimization is happening. Is optimizing the cathode or optimizing the anode and by getting the lithium into that battery in a farm that is more readily available and useful whether it is in the cathode or the anode makes your battery more efficient and if you can. 

09:35.28 

Srini 

Take a lot of the cage out or lightweight the battery then you have more range and more energy density in a battery. So the battery in general performs better and can be used for a wider number of applications. 

09:48.89 

Jeff McAulay 

Help us visualize that battery so you talk about a cathode and anode a cage and there's a separator in between correct. So what's the direction of travel and why do we need a cage. 

10:06.86 

Srini 

Sure look lithium today in the gen the current generation of lithium and batteries. You basically have ah lithium in a cage and the cage is you have different. Um, um, you know ah types of cages. A Tesla would use something called ah and nca ah nickel cobort alumina matrix you also see ah Nmc being used out there which is nickel Cobort manganese. Ah, you have something called lfp lithium iron phosphate. So they are different cages for the cathode right now and all they are doing is they're hosting the lithium ah in that cage when you have a battery and what they do is they stack a cathode an electrolyte a separator an anode. And again they repeat it right? So ah, you basically after an anode again have a separator ah electrode. So it's back to back stacking and there are multiple stacks of this. Which then they either wind into a cylindrical cell or a po cell and then you have multiple of those connected in series and paddle and that is what your electric vehicle battery is now ah the in the cathode. Ah. 

11:30.23 

Srini 

It has been optimized right when you start all the lithium today sits in the cathode The anode is a carbon graphite and all the electrons sit in the anode and when you start charging that battery your lithium moves from the cathode to the anode and then back. The cat. So it's going across back and forth and that is what ah enables you to charge and discharge the battery and as you discharge the battery you're basically using that to ah either power your device power your ah ev. 

12:08.51 

Srini 

Right? that that mobility are your your battery being used in a device comes from that capability. Ah, where the industry has spent the most time has been in optimizing the catho where they have not. Spent much time and where a lot of the focus today is in optimizing that anode which is what we refer to as next generation of batteries. 

12:38.44 

Jeff McAulay 

Great and you're saying that the anode is composed of Graphite. So Graphite seems to be I mean this is what people know as pencil lead. It's ah, abundant. It's cheap. So it. Why are we talking about optimizing this very cheap abundant material such as graphite. So. 

13:02.70 

Srini 

Graphite is bulky from a volume standpoint. It is heavy as well. So when you think of what is important in a ev. It is the weight of the battery and when you talk about the next. Generation of mobility which is a transportation. It is the volume that's important. So from those 2 aspects ah replacing graphite with something that has higher energy density is important. 

13:38.35 

chrissass 

When I think of an Ev battery I think of many many cells put together I Think what you just described is at the cell level correct. Um, and you're talking weight and volume. How much weight and volume are we talking you mean? what is this. 

13:45.73 

Srini 

Yep. 

13:52.44 

chrissass 

Significant or and what kind of percentages different Can we be because a cell is pretty small. 

13:56.20 

Srini 

Look when you think of a cell or a pack itself right? when you put all these cells together on a energy density basis on a weight basis when you replace the graphite with something like Lithium Metal. You're talking twice. The energy density and on a volume basis 3 times the energy density being available when you replace the graphite. So It is substantial both on a weight and a volume basis. 

14:29.29 

Jeff McAulay 

So I might be getting confused you said Lithium sits at the cathode you're going to replace the graphite anode with more lithium Can you really have is that right? you have lithium on both sides. 

14:44.18 

Srini 

So you can have lithium on both sides. The key question is how much lithium is there on the anode. Um, when you have lithium in the cathode. What you would do is you would use a very very thin anode which we call as ultratenannodes. These could be anything around two microns to five micron thick ah just for comparison our hair. The human hair is about hundred Micron thick right? So you are really talking. Ah. Ah, twentieth of the size of your hair. So a very thin ah fo being the um anode you're not bringing in a lot of lithium at that point of time into the anode but just enough to provide a nice plating surface. So the lithium from the cathode when it comes over can nicely plate your anode without without having any any any challenges with the deposit now. There are certain technologies out there. Ah which are called lithium sulfur or lithium air. Which really look to replace the entire cathode that you have today with a really cheap cathode like a sulfur or ah, certain other cathode materials which are inexpensive right? So they take the battery cost down further. But in that case. 

16:08.24 

Srini 

Hundred percent of the lithium needed needs to come from the anode so you would end up using thicker lithium files for those kind of batteries. 

16:15.47 

chrissass 

Are the changes that we're seeing taking place because the supply chain and getting the materials or is it just simply because it's a better battery. 

16:26.10 

Srini 

Great question. They are 2 ah ah metrics at play here right? They they they are 2 things happening at the same time you have geopolitical pressures. 1 ah, for example, like China recently kind of banned the graphite export out of China where they are trying to ah keep a lot of the graphite for domestic use as we all know China has about 60% of the ev market a second need. Ah, which is an interesting development is the western world ah is more range sensitive so they want to ah have the same kind of range that a gasoline engine gives them or an internal combustion. Engine gives them so where they can go several hundred miles on a single charge. Which means either you have to have larger batteries. So if you look at it today. The back size of a battery of a ev battery in us is exceeding 80 ghty kilowatars but in china you're more like 40 kilowatar so you have larger batteries being put into the western world because range is a concern one way to get that range without putting um that much weight into the vehicle is to go to this next generation of batteries. 

17:45.54 

Srini 

Which can lightweight the batteries give you more energy density. 

17:47.51 

chrissass 

All right? So energy Density is one element. The other thing is how often you can charge and discharge do these properties change with a different chemistry. 

17:58.54 

Srini 

They do when you go to the next generation. One of the key metrics that people are looking for these batteries is how quickly can you charge. It's called fast charge. Um, when you are a the Holy Grail is 15 to 30 minute charge giving you a hundred. Mile range right? That's what all of the auto ah oes are trying to get you? Ah um, basically these batteries have to work at at room temperature not at elevated temperatures right? So some of the batteries that are in the market today used in buses. 

18:17.25 

chrissass 

At what temperature do they do that that test at. 

18:33.36 

Srini 

Do that at elevated temperatures. So the all the R and D work that's ongoing is to bring that temperature down to room temperature operation. 

18:43.57 

Jeff McAulay 

You do you use C rate I mean what's the normal because it can change based on the vehicle or the temperature all that So isn't what's the normalized metric that's used in batteries. 

18:46.76 

chrissass 

First let you. 

18:55.67 

Srini 

Look They are different applications use a different C rate right? Ah, but the higher the C rate what tends to happen is you have? Ah, what is called endrite formation which is which can chart circuit the battery and um. Aviation needs 2 Plus C Rate. Ah Automotive is ah slightly lower than that anywhere between 1 to 2 So A lot of the work that's going on is how do you make these anodes. How do you layer these anodes so that they don't have 10 write formation. How can you protect them so they have 2000 plus cycles right? That is the work research and development that's going on right now in the industry is to give a high C rate. Ah but at the same time prevent generate formation which deteriorates the life of the battery. 

19:46.60 

Jeff McAulay 

And can you just Define C rate. 

19:51.89 

Srini 

Is based basically the ah ah chart charge and this charge rate that you are operating it. Let me we might have to edit this and give you the right answer ah because. 

20:03.15 

Jeff McAulay 

Yeah I think it's like I was trying to remember so if I'm putting you on the spot I think it's ah the number of hours to fully discharge the battery. Okay, that's fine. Yeah. 

20:10.46 

Srini 

I Have to look it up I do not know from the top of my head. Yeah. 

20:15.94 

chrissass 

Yeah, ah, let's just pull that out so that we don't get hung up on that and keep the flow. Um now lie metals you focus on and no technology that that's what your company's doing and and you described very thin membrane of of you know to to be. 

20:30.25 

Srini 

A fight. 

20:33.14 

chrissass 

Ah, foil help me understand more about these foils I'm I'm interested I'm curious so we we talked about different materials. Let's talk a little bit about that technology where is it today you know are we cutting edge day. Are we bleeding edge day or where is it headed. 

20:45.91 

Srini 

Sure look think of how the anodes today are right? The anode is basically a graphite which is deposited onto a copper current collector. So that copper is the file and you're depositing. Um, ah, ah, ah, a thick. Layer of graphite on top of that copper what we are trying to do is use the same copper current character but deposit a really thin layer of lithium as a coating surface. Um, the technology that is used is called physical wapre deposition. Physical vapor deposition has existed for several decades and has been widely used for a lot of different materials. A simple example that we see every day is yeah if you open up a bag of chips. You would see the inside of that has ah aluminum deposit. And that uses physical wapor deposition. So this is large-s scale um very high throughput kind of a technology that's been evolved what we are trying to do is adopt that for lithium. Which is the challenge because handling lithium is quite different than handling aluminum or some of the other materials. It is very sensitive to moisture very sensitive to air so doing it right is what we are bringing to the table. Ah, we are basically adopting an existing technology and. 

22:15.78 

Srini 

Bringing it into um automotive applications where we are to just to address your second question where this technology is we are building the world's largest commercial ah pvd machine. Ah in terms of format and by format. We mean with. 

22:20.22 

chrissass 

Um, no. 

22:35.78 

Srini 

Ah, width is a key factor for cost so for us with a cost focus. We're building our first machine which should be available. Um second half of this year 

22:45.37 

chrissass 

All right, You've got custom equipment that you're building to do This is this a giant clean room or what does this look like when this stuff is being produced. 

22:53.30 

Srini 

So We have optimized the footprint when we started. It was a giant dry room right? A clean room with with specific moisture and temperature control. But that's expensive to build and very time consuming. So What we have right now is. Just the door where we put the lithium in ah the copper in and the files in is in a ah dry room. The rest of the equipment is completely sits outside the dry room right? The machine ah comes through a wall. Ah, most of the machine is outside the dry room just the door of the machine is inside the dry room. So when we are handling the lithium and handling the ah file. Ah, it is in a dry room environment but rest of the machine is outside So The footprint of the dry room that you need has been completely optimized. 

23:42.26 

chrissass 

Is there a difference between the manufacturing process energy use and effort for this manufacturing as opposed to the traditional way of making batteries today. 

23:55.66 

Srini 

From a carbon footprint this substantially reduces the amount of carbon footprint that your battery has ah from a energy Viewpoint. It uses a different kind of energy right? be I using Electric Energy. And ah, most of our focus has been to find green sources of electric Energy. So the way we are looking at making our lithium metal or making these anodes is through using either Hydroelectric power or other renewable powers. So That. Ah, we can really reduce the ah CO 2 footprint of the entire value chain. 

24:38.65 

Jeff McAulay 

So You mentioned in the graphite anodes that surface area was really important I think when you're talking about energy Density. It's really charge density which is related to service Area. So Why is this hard to build foils and how are you getting that thin layer. To actually have high service area and. 

25:00.31 

Srini 

So how are files made today right? That's the primary question that I think your viewers need to think of today. Ah we make the metal and we provide what we call ingots right in gets a big blocks of lithium metal anywhere between 3 to five kilograms each that somebody you know who wants to make these files puts into a machine they are extruded out of the machine then they are rolled to a certain thickness right? But this extrusion enrolling has a limitation in that they can go as thin as twenty five thirty microns but typically used for 100 to two hundred Micron thick foils right? The challenge is and lithium as you stretch it starts to tear starts to rip so it is difficult to make a very uniform foil what we do. Or this technology with war deposition does is you start from the bottom up right? So you are depositing on a substrate of copper or polymer and then building your way up. So what we the reason why we say two Micron is you want a uniform deposit without any. Pin breakcks or holes on your copper. So what we have noticed is we can do all the way from 0 but you don't get a uniform coat right around two micron is where you're getting a uniform surface and beyond that up to twenty microns is cost effective. 

26:28.40 

Srini 

Beyond any microns. It starts to get more expensive. 

26:33.66 

Jeff McAulay 

So can you talk about safety I know people are concerned and and we've seen all sorts of ah destructive tests like a puncture test you mentioned tears. How do you deal with that with such thin layers in the battery right. 

26:48.48 

Srini 

Look. The key is one the substrate right? So You always are going to have a substrate in this case, a current collector in this case, it could be copper by itself or a metalized polymer. Ah for aviation specially designed by us for Aviation. So. What that does is it prevents any of these rips and tears and gives it structural integrity and then you put it in a role and the role goes straight into the manufacturing process. So It's a rule roll now from a safety viewpoint you want to do this in a dry room environment. But once you have made the battery. It is pretty safe right? because it's not as much lithium in the battery most batteries in this current generation where the fire this comes from is the electrolyte that's used which is quite flamable and most of our customers are developing electrolytes. Which are not carbonate based and non non flamable which means the entire so battery itself the next generation battery is far safer than the current generation of batteries. 

27:58.74 

Jeff McAulay 

This is a good time for you to tell us about what you think the next generation of batteries are going to be I think people get a little bit overwhelmed with the alphabet soup of different battery chemistries the NcaThe Nmc the lfp and then there's different. 

28:12.81 

Srini 

Yeah. 

28:16.75 

Jeff McAulay 

You know, structural components here as you're mentioning. Where do you think the battery industry is really going in the next five years and the next ten so 

28:25.12 

Srini 

Sure the think of it as this way there was a battery that was designed with a cathode and an anode what they realized is cobort became expensive so they started to optimize the content of cobalt in the catho dog. That is where this alphabet soup of Nca and nmclfp. All of this came, but there are 2 simple pathways where that evolution has happened 1 is the high energy density pathway where nickel more and more of the n alphabet soup started. Are the lfp pathway which is the iron phosphate which is the more costef effective pathway but it does not have the same range or the energy density. So these are the 2 pathways the cathode has evolved now most of the cathode optimization is done. There is very little tweaks that can be done so. Focus has shifted to the anode and now you're seeing either silicon or lithium metal start to be introduced in in place of graphite to boost the overall energy density in the battery. The Holy Grail the end goal is to have lithium in the anode and. And completely eliminate the cage with nickel or ia and or cobort completely outright. So once you go to that um commercialization of lithium metal anodes and they have been brought into the market that. 

29:58.12 

Srini 

That's when you would see the Lithium sulfurs are basically people going back and completely eliminating the cathode right? The next step of this evolution is you've got to get that anode graphite anodes replaced. And once that eval evolution is complete. You'll go back and start seeing Lithium Sulfur Lithium air or some of the other technologies people are talking about. 

30:17.95 

chrissass 

Do these need to go through a news cycle. So if you're putting this in my automobile. How does a new tech get approved so that that I'm sure that I have a safe vehicle. 

30:28.20 

Srini 

Yeah, so look whenever there's a new battery. There is a series of things that happen every new technology first goes into drones why because drones are very heavy use. Ah, they will replace the battery after forty fifty cycles right? So the first test case is always military drone applications so that is where the first test of a battery happens of a new technology happens then you would see that technology come into. Devices so your watches fitbits whatever you can think of ah because those last about a year and then they're replaced so that would typically be the second ah application and then come evs because they take about 4 years of testing and so once this has entered the drone. Usually you're sampling the ev customers and then they put through different testing cycles to make sure the range is there the cycle that lifetime of the battery is there. The safety features can be at risk. So um. It's not instantaneous that this technology is out there right? So it takes once you you have um, scaled up then it takes 3 to 4 years for it to so be seen in the ev but once it's in an ev then that's when the real ramp happens right? That's a very rapid market uptake. 

31:56.91 

Srini 

Ah, at that point of time. 

32:00.85 

Srini 

So a natural question right? for yeah that your audience should be wondering where are these batteries then are they being tested and they are being tested in the Evis right now right? They have gone through their drone phase. You see some of these batteries with solid state technology now moving into ev testing. 

32:20.32 

Jeff McAulay 

You mentioned one of the main motivations is ultimately supply chain so where are the supply chains. Are we talking about domestic manufacturing domestic supply and how soon are those factories and other refinery infrastructure How soon is. How soon are the batteries. You're talking about going to be built in the United States 

32:43.53 

Srini 

Look if you look at the market reports and based on customer feedback people are trying to bring um capacity for solid state batteries online in this decade right. Ah, sometime people are talking between 27 to twenty thirty having giga factories up and running right? and it takes 2 to 3 years for a giga factory to be up and running so they are already planning right now and getting the funding in place for these giga factories depending on which report you look at. Um, and whether you are ah you have an optimistic view or a very conserv view solid state by 2030 is supposed to be about two hundred to five hundred Gigawatts of capacity ah just for comparison traditional lithium and batteries today have about a. Ah, thousand gigawats of of capacity. So you're talking about 20 to 50% of that kind of capacity being built out by 2030 so a rapid expansion in solid state capacity to make this happen. A key is metal and. Anodes right? That is what is lagging right now because 95 96% of the mental supply today comes out of China um, and so that is what we are working towards is localizing the supply chain all the way from. 

34:12.90 

Srini 

Mental production and anote production in North America so all our customers who are trying to build this capacity here are iari compliant. 

34:21.66 

chrissass 

Now I'm not particularly well versed in this but I'm going to ask the question Anyway, um, it sounds like you're using less and less of these materials except for Lithium and Lithium is pretty abundant if if I'm not Mistaken. So How does this impact recycling. Is it still valuable enough if I have such a thin layer in there that I need to reclaim am I still reclaiming all this stuff. 

34:41.27 

Srini 

Good question, 2 part answer for that. Let me first address your question on thin lithium the amount of lithium that's required and the battery doesn't change the thin lithium comes in when you have lithium in the cathode. Right? If you eliminate the cathode lithium then you have to put all that lithium in the anode. So it becomes a thicker lithium foil so roughly 7.2% of your catho is lithium that will not change and you can look across chemistries. It is very consistent the cat or about seven point two is is lithium in your battery and that is required to make the battery work right? So that will remain consistent. So ah, your second part on recycling ah the demand for lithium is not going to drop even when you go to these next generation batteries. Because the energy density is greater. People will get more range. We don't expect people to demand less range or accept smaller batteries. They will always demand more range better cars. Um, and on a single charge going further. So the amount of lithium you put in to the vehicles will remain will continue to grow so the lithium demand is going to increase and recycling will be a critical part of this technology the key question there is will. 

36:12.55 

Srini 

The existing recycling companies be able to handle the metal foil and the answer is no. You need a different technology and we have already built that technology we have a 20 metton pilot that's operational. Um as people move transition towards metal anodes. They will need a different chemistry. You cannot use the current recycling technology to convert that metal back because that metal if it hits any water or any acid it's going to generate hydrogen and it's going to blow up. So you need an alternate technology which is now already scaled up with with Canadian Garment funding we are already operating a 20 ton pilot and processing all those crap anons right now for our customers. 

37:04.43 

Jeff McAulay 

Very interesting and so are you mentioned the onsoring of supply chain you mentioned government support from Canada are there other additional support elements coming from the us government either out of the ah ira or other grant programs. Okay. 

37:19.16 

Srini 

Look the ira is very interesting as you scale up right? The challenge is for small companies which are in the technology development phase. The ira is is not super supportive right? so. Once you are about that $5000000000 kind of a spend range iradoe funds Darpa funds. All of these come into play when you're trying to build up build out that capacity where we have struggled is when you are um. You you can't you don't go from lab scale to a $100000000 plant right? without the middle step and that middle step of the funding you still need industry to help fund those kind of efforts. Ah, but once you scale to that hundred plus million dollar of Capexs requirement the ira helps. Ira has been a huge tailwind for next generation battery technologies right? with with the need to onhore and if you look at the ira by 28 twenty nine hundred percent of your anods need to come from u sources. If you are trying to get the rebate right? So it is critical to have policies like that in late. 

38:46.24 

Jeff McAulay 

Great. So um, let's talk about your personal journey. You have a immense technical depth in talking through all of the different battery chemistries and the internal components. How did you get to the position where you are today. 

38:59.86 

Srini 

Sure, um, it was an interesting journey right? Um, ah because ah my my careerr is equally split between oil and gas and the later half being renewable. So. I was actually hired into album all in about a decade ago. Ah which was my first exposure to lithium to really look at lithium as an oil and gas guy because at that point of time oil and gas was project projecting very poor uptake of ev's um. It's interesting, right? now you have exxonmobil getting into lithium but back then when you looked at all the oil and gas companies. They were ah projecting really poor lithium uptake or lithium demand so that was my first entry into lithium as a non-believer. 

39:50.99 

Srini 

14 and I was asked to really look at this market really see where album all needs to invest. So my first two years with albumbaol was spent looking at all the resources all the technology where the market would be ah how the demand profile would evolve. Ah, what would accelerate what could decelee what are the this right? So we built out that data science capability for album o and really looked at um, what the market would do ah then that evolved further into the need for recycling. Need for next generation battery technology so we built out a recycling team. We built out a metal team. We built out. Ah solid state ah electrolyte team. So all of those were ah where most of this know how knowledge came as we built those teams and as we worked with customers now. Um you know, live metal offers the ability to really. Make ultra thin anodes. They offered the ability to really integrate the value chain all the way from metal to these anodes when they ah approach me for that role to leave this company I found that very attractive that there was one player who really realized the value of all this for the us or north american market. 

41:19.29 

Srini 

And that is what attracted me and brought me to this room. 

41:20.88 

chrissass 

All right I always like to end our podcast with a crystal ball prediction. So we're talking about very thin and o technology where's that technology a year from now in North America 

41:34.96 

Srini 

Ah, more or less the same place unfortunately where we are. It'll be 27 28 when it starts to take off. Ah I am hopeful that you will start seeing customers put contracts in place in 2025. The key is us building out that machine and really demonstrating to industry that you can really drive costs down right? That's what we are hoping to cost is a key barrier right now and availability of the material is the second key barrier and we are hoping by second half of this year we eliminate those 2 barriers and we can accelerate. Instead of 2027 bring that demand forward by 12 to 18 months and hopefully late 25 early 26 rather than early twenty five you know that we will have the demand. 

42:19.49 

chrissass 

All right? So let's rephrase the question in 2026 do I see a giga factory with your technology. 

42:26.11 

Srini 

Yes I would I am definitely sure. There will be several gigawatts of capacity built out with our technology by 26 

42:38.24 

chrissass 

Awesome! Well I want to thank you for coming on the podcast today. It's been an amazing ride. Thank you for joining us today all right? So we've got an interview a little bit of editing going to take place in that we still need the intro so we need your sound bite. Um. 

42:42.24 

Srini 

Thanks Chris thanks Jeff. 

42:55.53 

chrissass 

What I suggest we do is and I just want to be mindful of my colleague Jeff's time as well. Um, before we go to that is there anything in the interview that topics that you wish Jeff and I would have covered mutually together because I can work on the soundbite with you one on one. We don't need the whole team to do the sound bite. 

43:11.96 

Srini 

No I think I think we covered pretty broad. Um, most of the topics from Harry Any any anything that we didn't cover. 

43:17.97 

chrissass 

Um, Harry you wait. 

43:20.17 

Harry 

I think it I I mean maybe for the video we could touch a little bit more on the engineering study on the metal side and the chlorine gas. Ah yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's what I mean? yeah. 

43:25.80 

Srini 

Yeah. 

43:30.85 

chrissass 

Let's be on the short right? Let's do that as is the up right? So if that's the case what I'm going to suggest we do Jeff do you want to hang for this part, you're welcome to hang here. 

43:40.97 

Jeff McAulay 

I Actually um I do I'm sorry I ah duty to drop if I can a little early. Um I was just thinking for the intro part I Really like I was just playing with this phrasing. Um that one of the more important areas of battery innovation is actually removing. The cheapest part or I don't know how you would frame it. But it's like it's not actually removing the most expensive or like the the critical minerals. It's getting rid of the cheap stuff which is the graphite. But it's because it's so heavy and bulky and that's kind of Counterintuitive. So I like that. Ah, if you can think of how to phrase that. 

44:05.12 

Srini 

Um, yeah. 

44:17.16 

chrissass 

All right? So Jeff if you can just mute and kill your camera one and I'll stop this when I stop it and then hopefully you'll still be here so we get it and you and I can regroup later to do the intro all right? So let let's go ahead and start with the intro Jeff gave you some suggested wording i. 

44:17.17 

Jeff McAulay 

Could be a nice lead in. 

44:20.94 

Jeff McAulay 

Yeah I'll do that. 

44:28.39 

Jeff McAulay 

It sounds good. 

44:35.16 

chrissass 

I know that you had some time to think about this. We've got multiple takes just you know, be mindful that you want to be bold. You want to lean into it. You want to have good energy and you want to look at the camera. Um and we can just just take a take or 2 just take a stop and you know if if if you get a third of the way through you don't want to do it. 

44:42.53 

Srini 

Sure. 

44:52.42 

chrissass 

Try to finish it up because we can fit pieces together as well. Ah, in the editing you know it's professional editing so as long as it's individual sound bites. We can clip bits and pieces together. You may not need to get you know 15 20 seconds all in 1 blurb. It might be segments together but we will get it. So go ahead. 

44:53.68 

Srini 

Shift. 

45:05.46 

Srini 

Perfect go for it. Okay, the Ira and government policies have really accelerated the decarbonization of the transportation sector. However, we do not have enough domestic production capacity. Ah to build Lithium metal anodes to support these vehicle targets the key driver for the industry is to eliminate the lowest cost product the graphite in the batteries to drive the energy density of the battery. Vertical integration and production capacity are critical to drive the cost down for the Lithium metal and metal anodes so we can boost the uptake of next generation batteries. 

46:00.31 

chrissass 

So I did hear a noise in your beginning I thought I heard a background noise pop in from somewhere. Yeah I would try it again. Um, it felt a little bit in the middle that you got tied down in reading as well. So try to be as flow as you can we? we'll use what we can. 

46:00.93 

Srini 

Okay, let me try again. 

46:13.50 

Srini 

Yeah, let me just let me just type in so that I was trying to weave in his thing give me one second sure 

46:20.10 

chrissass 

Yeah, its in in like I said we can try multiple versions to to do it. So I'm going to be quiet again. Let you go when you're ready. 

46:28.83 

Srini 

The Ira and government policies including the upcoming internal combustion. Engine bands have accelerated the decarboization of Transport Sector. However, onuring of battery supply chains requires enough. Domestic production capacity to be built up for Lithium metal anodes and Lithium metal the key to innovation in the battery space is now the elimination of the lowest cost component the graphite in the batteries. We really need to accelerate. Buildup of vertically integrated production so we can drive costs down and make next generation Battery Technologies costcompetitive with current liththeia and batteries. 

47:22.48 

chrissass 

I was I got distracted to this alert coming up from Jeff um, what I was going to say looks like Jeff's microphone is messed up. Um I think. 

47:36.60 

chrissass 

Oh shoot and I can't replay it. You made the point where you were actually going to like the key or to hey Jeff your your your thing keeps popping an error up here I don't know if you can hear me or not but it's causing us issues. Um, maybe you want to. Um, how to stop Jeff here hold on I'm I'm sorry I'm just dealing with the it's pop up but what what I was trying to say is what what? I'd like to see is you had like the solution or the there was like problem statement. 

47:55.17 

Srini 

No no, that's good. 

48:10.46 

chrissass 

Then kind of a bold statement and then problem statement again or how to fix it and I think that the key to I think is what you said I can't remember the wording at the moment you started to say but that would almost be a better lead in because now you're talking about hey you know this is the problem that we're solving and then we're going to the problem. Let's try to frame it that way and and I can up and interrupt. 

48:14.19 

Srini 

Um, fear Yeah, okay. 

48:25.35 

Srini 

Share. 

48:28.91 

chrissass 

I'm worried about this thing that Jeff's think his microphone or something is unhappy. It says he's healthy right now. But let's just try it anyway. 

48:34.11 

Srini 

Ship. 

48:35.98 

Harry 

So Chris we're okay on time for this right with him in terms of how long how long was that ah his recording right? there like it was a minute. Yeah. 

48:43.91 

chrissass 

Yeah, the recording fine. We still need the intro so we're good with that. Um, but yeah, let's let's let's just go again. You do understand what I'm trying to do Harry I I want to start with the positive you know, just. 

48:51.30 

Srini 

Um, yep, yep. 

48:51.85 

Harry 

Yeah, no, no, totally. Yeah yeah. 

48:56.68 

chrissass 

Just imagine like a ted talk or something like that right? you're in the room. You're the subject matter expert and I want you to make a statement like the world's coming then with these batteries blah blah blah right and then you come back and say okay, well we need to fix the this or that so I would just change the framing a little bit all I'm Nuskin. 

48:57.43 

Srini 

Okay. 

49:03.54 

Srini 

Shut it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let me try again. The Ira and governmentment policies including the upcoming ic bands have helped accelerate the decarboization of the transportation sector the key to innovation in this sector is. To replace the graphite. The lowest cost component in the battery with better performing anodes. However, we do not have enough domestic production capacity built up to accomplish this l I metal. With its vertically integrated supply sorry Alice restart ah the ira and other government policies including the upcoming internal combustion engine bands have helped to accelerate the decarbonization of the transportation sector. The. Key innovation in this space is replacement of the cheapest component the graphite in the batteries with higher energy density lithium metal. However, we do not have enough domestic production capacity to support the. 

50:23.23 

Srini 

Growth in vehicles. It is critical to build this capacity and drive cost lower so that we can support the adoption of next generation batteries in this market. 

50:38.87 

chrissass 

So 2 things is if you do need to record something separate. You don't need to do a whole thing because we just we can use the sound bite. Um, it may get changed around a little bit in the order when when they present it because what I like is. 

50:41.58 

Srini 

Ship. 

50:49.65 

Srini 

Which is fine which is fine. 

50:55.90 

chrissass 

The the big problem statement right? and then that's there. Um I think we probably have enough I don't know I would try 1 more shot just to have 1 more just different take to work from ah like you said, if you can lean into here's what's going on. You know, hey you know if if you want to get rid of internal combustion engines. 

51:00.73 

Srini 

Um, okay, clean. Yeah. 

51:11.49 

Srini 

Yep yep. 

51:14.67 

chrissass 

And you want to do these things and you want to have a supply chain that works you can't stand the trajectory on today. It needs to change that's kind of the message I'm hearing right? and but by starting that way is kind of saying this is what we're going to talk about in the next thirty minutes of your life. You're going to listen to us talk about batteries. We're going to talk about anodes in all this detail. 

51:20.50 

Srini 

Um, yeah, yep, exactly. 

51:32.66 

chrissass 

But what the big problem statement that we're going to talk about is current Trajectory doesn't work. 

51:35.80 

Srini 

Sure The Ira and other government policies including the upcoming Intel Combution Engine bands are helping to accelerate the decarboization of the transportation sector. However, the most. However, the cheapest component in the battery. The graphite needs to be eliminated and replaced with higher energy density materials like Lithium metal given the sensitivity of the sector to cost and the need to accelerate the buildup. Off this vertically integrated supply. Ne. No I should not read. Yeah yeah, Yeahp Yup. Yeah yeah, Yeahp However, we do not have enough domestic production capacity built up. 

52:20.37 

chrissass 

Just take off on the part. Don't don't do the whole thing again. Just do where you where you mormon start again. 

52:33.65 

Srini 

For the lithium metal or the metal anodes to support this vehicle growth. We really need to change our trajectory and accelerate the development of a vertically integrated supply chain in North America to meet the demands. Of the mobility sector. 

52:52.45 

chrissass 

Okay, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to hit stop recording here because I want to get Jeff's errors to go away and let him get uploaded. So it's gonna upload for. 

52:55.92 

Srini 

Um, yeah.