160 - The Future of Electricity Transmission: Unveiling Energy Innovations with Sara Mochrie of WSP North America

In today's episode on Insiders Guide to Energy, Chris and Jeff are joined by Sara Mochrie, SVP at WSP USA, to dive deep into the complexities and innovations in energy transmission. Sara brings her extensive experience in managing cross-state energy projects and her passion for renewable energy solutions to the table, offering our listeners an unparalleled view into the future of energy infrastructure. 

Sara discusses the complexities of implementing renewable energy projects across state lines, the role of innovative technologies, and the importance of cohesive policies to support the energy transition. Through engaging anecdotes and expert analysis, she highlights WSP USA's leading role in shaping sustainable energy infrastructures, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the dynamics of modern energy solutions. 

Listeners of this episode will gain insights into the intricacies of energy transmission within the renewable energy sector, as Sara Mochrie of WSP USA delves into the challenges and opportunities of cross-state energy projects. Through her expertise, the audience will learn about the importance of policy, innovation, and stakeholder engagement in overcoming regulatory hurdles and advancing the transition towards sustainable energy solutions. This episode offers a unique perspective on the collaborative efforts required to drive the global energy transition forward. 

Tune into this episode to get a rare opportunity to hear from Sara, as she navigates the complexities of renewable energy infrastructure. Her insights on overcoming regulatory challenges, leveraging innovative technologies, and engaging stakeholders makes this a pivotal episode for anyone interested in the future of energy and sustainability. 

Transcript

00:00.00 

Chrisssass 

 Welcome to insiders guide to energy im your host Chris Sass and with me as co-host Jeff McAulay, but equally important is our guest; Sara Mochrie, SVP, Market Director of Earth, Environment and Energy at WSP North America. What an amazing episode we have today. It's very comprehensive. This is a transmission episode. We talk about the challenges, policy, legislation, innovations that help, even funding these projects! ANd we bring that all to fruition in the next 30 minutes. We hope that you enjoy this episode of the Insiders Guide to Energy Podcast. 

09:07.58 

Jeff McAulay 

Right? And I think there's a general understanding that transmission is an essential part of the clean energy revolution because you might have wind or solar resources far away from population centers. So you have to get. 

09:09.37 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Era. 

09:25.90 

Jeff McAulay 

The generation to the population the way to do that is with the bulk transmission system. But why is that so hard. This should be straightforward. There should be some sort of multi-state body that makes these things work. But as you said it's a coordination process across multiple states. Potentially multiple Jurisdictions so who tend to be the progenitors like who are the entities that actually put forward these large scale transmission projects. 

09:54.38 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um, well who puts them forward is 1 thing and I think just go back to one of the things that you said reminds us that we're a republic every state has their own process that they can advocate for projects through with different developers or utilities. Um, we don't have a single one-stop shop in the us for transmission like we do even for things like gas pipelines that cross over state boundaries. We do have essentially a one stop shop. That's Ferc but there's not any 1 entity in the us that says you know you're allowed to build this and you know stands up and proclaims this is the project. There's steps toward that direction legislatively to say you know we have national interest corridors but that doesn't mean the project gets approved and built it just says it's better to do it here than there in comparison to you know, different countries that. Have authorities that say we must do this and we'll support it and when you build it we will pay you for it. You know that's not exactly how the us works and so you have to go to every I column like windows or kiosks if your project's going through 4 States you have to think as each one of those 4 states like a kiosk. That you're going to have to go to and make the folks in that state happy and satisfied and compliant. 

11:14.50 

Jeff McAulay 

That's really interesting that you mentioned Ferc is in charge of cross state pipelines for oil or gas but not for power does that seem strange. 

11:24.62 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um I think it does seem strange I think everyone is asking ourselves this question right now these projects are so large as there is no one in charge that can make this project happen. We can put in on a dashboard for the white house to put the project in a spotlight but there's not a single entity that can tell you build this. You have to go to every single one of those stakeholders and make sure that there's buy-in and you're following through the process of the project that they control so it just means your list of stakeholders and parties that have to participate is so long and you know it inquires. And incredible I'm on of fortitude in the beginning and collaboration to bring all them together and you got to carry them along all the way through you know you don't have that onet stop shop that you can go to It's got to be something that you can take on and and run with for sometime seven or ten years 

12:09.10 

Jeff McAulay 

Here. 

12:16.95 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

That's a lot of time and a lot of money. 

12:17.92 

Jeff McAulay 

And the entities that are doing that. So when you talk about the entity that is around for 10 years to bring that through a multi-state process that is an Iso or a utility who's really doing that pushing given how challenging it can be. 

12:34.11 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah, the iso sets the need in the market but the utilities and the developers have to have that willingness to endure that for 10 years and the money that they're using to finance the project whether it's money from a ratepayer or money from the market. Has to have that patience. We refer to it sometimes as you know is it patient money or anxious money and you know ratepayers. It's anxious money. It's it's money you're using that's coming from people's utility bills every day you know money from private equity in the marketplace might might be more patient or maybe not. Just depends on you know what that stress and their portfolio they can take and so we we even look at projects that way as a consultant. It's like what's the tenor of the money behind the project and and in the marketplace is it is that an inpatient or a patient market. 

13:28.19 

chrissass 

And and how sensitive is the market you you brought up the rate payer right? And so the rate payer is pretty concerned about energy prices at any given moment so is the price of energy a direct impact of of how they support the project and can you. Expedite a 10 year project into multiple years during of a peak energy price timeframe. 

13:50.49 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um, yeah I mean you brought up a really good point in terms of the cost of the project because if a project takes 10 years and you forecasted the price ten years ago and you're finally shovels in the ground the project probably costs a lot different amount of money now. Um, so I think the rate payers are really sensitive and I think part of the reason is like maybe when you were growing up. Do you remember or did you ever hear about. Why is the utility bill this much like what's in it. It seems very mysterious. Um, and so I think people are much more attuned now to. Cost of energy. You know I don't remember hearing that when I was a kid like I don't remember hearing my parents talk about the cost of energy like the cost of the bill that showed up at the house but not why it's that much. Um I think the public is much more at tuned now when they see projects and there's so much media of how much is this going to cost me. Um, I think there's also a better sensitivity of you know if it takes 10 years for this project to be built. We have all seen inflation especially now in the market. We know things are more expensive than they were and just a couple years ago just forecast that onto a power project that has to buy billions of dollars worth of equipment. You know I think it's x today. What's it going to be in 5 years from now. Um, so I think the cost part of the equation is much more important and there's a lot more interest in it in a different part of the project now than there ever was in the past. It's much sooner. 

15:23.52 

Jeff McAulay 

For people who are looking at looking at their energy bill at home. The fun part is half of the bill is generally energy which the commodity the other half is T and D and so we're talking about the the T part the Trends transmission at the end of the day. 

15:37.39 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um, yet. 

15:42.16 

Jeff McAulay 

It's all rate payer dollars right? Even if it's fronted by a utility or private equity firm. They're expecting a payback that payback's going to come in the form of the T line on the on the bill for residents and businesses that said this is necessary to. 

15:51.90 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um, yep. 

16:00.82 

Jeff McAulay 

Ah, maintain and expand the grid so that we have reliable cheap power and in fact, transmissions should stabilize power prices If We're better connecting supply and Demand. So I think all of that's um, positive What is wsp's role in the the process you're clearly there. Along the way but not necessarily the utility or or firm. That's that's driving the process but you're definitely shepherding ah tell tell us more about that role. 

16:28.94 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah I like the word shepherd. It's a good one. Our role is really to get in as early as possible and be that shepherd all the way through and remove risk and and help clients go through a process where. You know if they can derisk something at you know every stage it's going to turn into savings from the ratepayer. So think about it in terms of I have an idea this is a project I want to develop you know what do I need to do to put together an execution plan. That's got risk identified and mitigated every step of the way. That's really what our strongest addition to this market is and that Maine and clients come to us when you know it's still an idea on a napkin maybe or it's just come out of their development teams workshop and they say we have this project. You know. Is what we're going to plan to build. It's on this timeline help us understand where the risks are and how we can mitigate you know where we can approach this with the best plan and come out the other side you know as efficiently as possible. 1 of the places that we're seeing we can have the. Best impact right now and the most important impact is with public engagement and getting stakeholders on board with the project early. That's a paradigm shift from projects even 2 and three years ago that wasn't something people did first It's what you did when you had to. 

18:01.91 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

And that's something that we're really pushing forward with clients is to think about doing that engagement early often and consistently don't just do it because you have to. 

18:14.50 

Jeff McAulay 

Oh Chris you're muted. 

18:15.62 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah Chris you're muted. 

18:19.21 

chrissass 

With the end trade transition being where it is you almost can't open a newspaper or turn on the nightly news and not hear an energy story. So mainstream america is thinking about energy electrification in particular evs and all that how is that. Impacting all of this because I would imagine if we're going to hit some climate goals or if you care about climate goals there. There's going to be an impact to the grids capability I think in the pre-call you and I've talked about reliability in the past is the average rate payer or homeowner in tune with that and. When you're saying engaging early are they getting bought into that new solar farm that's going to maybe be opening up in their region and then how it's going to get that electricity up to let's say Manhattan or some big city that wants that electricity. Maybe you can unpack that a little bit. 

19:05.30 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

yeah yeah I think that they're engaged in it if the people building the project want them to be and I think the other thing you talk about evs and and I'll say just because I have two kids and you know what I have a bunch of in my house cords I have cords for everything and. Everything we want to do is a plugin. You know we're plugging in our phone we're plugging in Ipads to charge. We're going to plug in cars to charge the transmission grid is so essential for all that to work I mean you plug in your Christmas lights for heaven sakes like everything's got to have an extension cord. Without that extension cord. It's not going to work and so I think that it's it's twofold I think is understanding what we're doing in our daily life that's increasing the demand because we are reducing some of the burden in some areas and coming up with efficiencies but we're also making you stuff that has to be plugged in and needs power. You know and that's evs and so you know that awareness and that education as it relates to the stuff you're plugging in your house but that solar farm down the road. It's like why do we need that solar farm. that's a conversation you know that's the engagement that I think. People are really hungry for and they get it but you need to take the time and the energy physical energy and have the desire to want to discuss it with them and bring them along through that journey of the project of saying why is this project here and connect it to all those uses. 

20:40.58 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

You know and I think you know people get that when you when you take the time to have that discussion. 

20:46.20 

chrissass 

Um, then how big a line item is communications pr in a project like this if I've got a multi-year project and I need to get thousands of stakeholders involved into it is it a noticeable line item then in in ah, any of these projects. 

20:59.17 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yes, it's aside from the cost and having a justification for the need. It's probably 1 of the biggest needs right now and line item like we said there's regulatory requirements of when you engage the public that are part of you know, almost every. State or federal or local regulatory process. But there's also a behavioral part which you as the project developer proponent you can change that paradigm beyond what's just required and do that consistent engagement at the beginning the middle and the end and carry it all the way through. That can really be something that makes or breaks these projects and getting those stakeholders on board so they feel like they're a partner. You know, not not an adversary can really change things especially because these are not projects. These people have seen every day you know. I've not seen four hundred mile long transmission lines in my lifetime and I've been doing nothing but energy work for 25 years you know we didn't have somebody knocking on our door and consultant saying I want to build a four hundred mile long or seven hundred mile long project that just wasn't the norm. So the public hasn't seen. These kinds of projects. That's that's the difference and bringing them along that entire journey could make the difference between a good and the bad outcome on a project. 

22:24.35 

Jeff McAulay 

Can you talk about some specific projects most notably here in new england there have been several that have actually failed going through either Maine or New Hampshire and I believe you've been a part of a more successful project would love to understand. What the difference is you mentioned community engagement but other things maybe on the technological side that lead to success where others have failed. 

22:48.23 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah there's I mean I have seen a number of projects in my career There have been some in new england that many of them did boil down to public sentiment about the project and it not it not being there and you know at the end of the day you know the project wasn't successful. But we are working on some really successful projects in New York the Champlain Hudson Power Express project is one that's currently under construction. Clean path. New York is another project that we've been supporting and they're on very different timelines. You know one project's been. You know it was it was. In the idea and planning phase and and went through permitting for a really long time and the other one has been accelerated and you know has gone through permitting in record time and just looking at the difference in those two timelines. You know you can see what did the public know and you know. Champline Hudson Power Express 10 probably twelve years ago versus what the public knows today on a project like clean path 2 very different conditions exist and you know that presents an opportunity for the developer that project to maybe you know employ a different approach that might save them. Um, a lot of time and eventually a lot of money on getting the project built those are some of the things I'd call them maturing that we're seeing in you know, project development and that maturing is directly related to you know I think the awareness of the public of the enormity of the need. 

24:18.89 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Around reliable energy and and how important transmission is in that equation. 

24:25.10 

Jeff McAulay 

And it seems like the state of New York has also been really supportive for the buildup of transmission. They have aggressive climate goals. So having perhaps one state that's involved in the process rather than multiple states and having that be a highly motivated partner. Um, it also sounds like there are some unique elements of maybe being underground versus overground that perhaps limit the um, the nimbyism or public pushback. There are other technological aspects or regulatory aspects in addition to the community engagement. That you see as being a difference maker. 

25:01.58 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah I think you did bring up a really good point is New York is its own market. You know it's New York is is one iso it does get harder when you have you know multiple states involved but I would I would take the term stakeholder and make it universal. States are your stakeholder just as much as a property owner is your stakeholder you want to engage with them early often and all the way through I think the other good point you brought up is just the differences in technology and approaches and it's all very customized and very local. So think of your stakeholder who wants you to cross the stream with a directional drill as opposed to an open cut. You're talking to them early and often and all the way through so they know you didn't just assume that we can do this here. You know we're going to take a more sensitive approach possibly to this crossing if it's warranted. Um, that that is all I think just part of the development strategy now of projects and talking about what the approach is and being more engaged and just more transparent that you're open to those different solutions if it can be buried or if it's overhead. Or you know a different construction solution for a particular project that is very much expected now. You know it's something that could be pushed off to you know a later time previously. Those are types of things that have to be worked out now in the beginning or. 

26:30.32 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

You know things are slowed down. 

26:34.47 

chrissass 

I guess when when you talk about multiple states what comes to mind for me is California you know you have all kinds of policy and public policy in your state which probably means a lot of your power comes from elsewhere or have legacy infrastructure driving um renewables and things coming from other areas. Um. What's significantly different maybe than the northeast quarter to what's taking place out in the west. How how are things different and how are they the same. 

26:59.70 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um, California brought up that example of you know, power's got to be imported. That's a big difference like there's there's so much significant generation that is needed to get to the California market but it's not being generated in California so the neighboring states have to be willing to play along. And some ways and that I think that starts to edge into the the situation of states like California that have really big load centers but they also happen to be adjacent to the ocean and is the load going to come from. You know a source a couple states away like. You know 3 or four megawatts of solar or wind that might be in. You know the desert southwest or is it going to come from a 3 or 4 Megawatt wind farm that's out in the pacific ocean I think those are some of both the the luxuries and you know maybe also the the challenges that those coastal states have is. Might have some choices of where that load can come from and that has an influence on what they're the local management of the region. You know of the utilities is versus a state like you know a Colorado or in Arizona that they don't have those kind of choices. Necessarily unless it's imported and the power's got to come from a long distance. It changes the development plan for the project and changes the number of choices that they have. 

28:27.23 

Jeff McAulay 

You know speaking of choices if you want if you have load and you want power. It's either a power pant or a transmission line and so those are the choices. So Maybe ah, people don't want a transmission line but they might prefer ah prefer that to a ah to a power plant. Where we've seen it going back to the new England example is where there were states that were essentially just pass-through where they weren't actually benefiting from the power but they were receiving the transmission line that that seems to make it Harder. Can you speak to some of the environmental questions. Imagine that the environmental impact of a transmission line is much much less than something like a ah oil and gas pipeline. But there must still be concerns are those warranted are these more people worried about Electromagnetic Radiation. What are those concerns and um. 

29:16.34 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah, the concerns. Um some of are the same. You know there are still questions about E enough but some of them are very different now. Ah one of the the big ones is pipeline Infrastructure is usually buried large overhead lines in certain parts of the the country particularly in the west are overhead. 

29:16.89 

Jeff McAulay 

How do you deal with them and. 

29:36.30 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

And they're doing nothing but getting bigger. So there's a visual impact that is there forever and you have to remember the landscape in that area has got you know different stakeholders than maybe a project that's up in new england some of those real sensitive stakeholders are tribes. And issues around cultural resource impacts and with that visual impact being there for as long as a life for that asset. You got to approach that stakeholder differently and that represents a different kind of permitting challenge and that permitting challenge starts off with where do we put the line. Where is the best place to put the line and it ties back to what we talked about earlier which is you know national interest corridors. Well the corridors leave you two choices. It's like ah the line has to go here because there's a corridor here already and so you're going to have to manage the impacts if the place to put that line is. You're only left with one choice. Those are some of the differences. Oh go ahead. Chris. 

30:33.91 

chrissass 

Um, it's it sounds a lot like we're we're building it on the fly. So so what I'm hearing is not only we're getting distributed energy but we're getting distributed architects building the infrastructure because it it doesn't seem like there's a single architectural plan. Recommendations from what you're saying for quarters but there's no teeth to those and that all these ideas need to get floated up socialized locally to see if you can make it fly in that region and if you can then you build the project. So are we going to end up with a grid and um. Transit and infrastructure that that's going to power the needs that we have in 10155 years so 

31:15.70 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

That's the challenge you you hit the nail in the head with that word. You know we got to socialize it every step of the way and because there's not 1 master architect. Um it does tend to look like a frankenstein if you will I mean that's what people have said about the grid now and you know we put lines where it's like. We need one here. Okay, let's build 1 um, there wasn't a master plan for the energy grid and there's still not a master plan with energy grid. There's a lot of effort put into it right now particularly by doe to set those plans in motion. But. I like to say it's still a big suggestion. Um, you know and others have to carry out the suggestion or not. 

31:57.94 

chrissass 

And then in order for the suggestion to get carried out. You may create a quarter or something like that. Ah, there's there are details like permitting and things that take place are there efforts at afoot to make permitting these projects. Easier or have you seen any changes in the process over your twenty plus years in the industry. 

32:19.20 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

There's definitely some efforts to streamline that are that are real but it still means that everyone who wants to build 1 of these projects has to go get you know their own permits and go through the state process. What nothing has done is nothing has eliminated. You know. A gate or a kiosk that you need to go through. Everyone's just trying to get people to you know play along and collaborate more to mitigate those differences and I want the project I don't want the project. So everything is really in the spirit of trying to get that collaboration increase to increase. Efficiencies and timelines. But there's no, you know I guess I tell people there's no legislation that's removing a requirement that you don't have to do this so you know national environmental policy act. You know it shouldn't take 5 years they're trying to have it take 1 year you know 2 years or less. Doesn't mean you don't have to do it anymore. It just mean they get done faster is that enough you know is that enough of a suggestion to get us where we need to be I know a lot of people don't think so but it's the best we can do right now. It's the best that's happening. 

33:27.12 

chrissass 

Are are we at a point where Capital is pent up where you have renewable developers that are waiting for transmission that that maybe kill the project. So the projects are taking place or are the projects just taking place at the at the speed they do and that's just part of the the timeline of New project. 

33:41.98 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

No I Would definitely say that there is generation that has decided to either slow, its its pace or you know hold off and actually going into the execution phase of build. There are several projects many solar projects right now that projects are permitted. But they're not executing the projects for construction because they're too concerned that the electrons from that project aren't going to get to market because there's there's not a grid established to handle them. So that is absolutely happening and there's a concern that that's going to be a delay continued delay on the energy transition journey that we're supposed to be on. 

34:22.33 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Just muted. 

34:27.20 

Jeff McAulay 

So you mentioned some directional improvements. So the two-year deadline for environmental review the the nepa review it sounds like that is directionally helpful but maybe it it should be 1 ah, there are also recent legislations from the infrastructure bill to expand permit approval for authority from Ferc ah doe you mentioned is trying to do um more to coordinate ah transmission corridors and then there's additional funding in the inflation reduction act. So it seems like There's a lot of different agencies. A lot of additional funding that's coming through is that making a dent or is that you know not sufficient to get us where we need to be. 

35:08.46 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

No, it's definitely making a dent but you know those are not tools that are available for everyone and so you know it is helping things and facilitating and I think causing a catalyst effect in the market but not everyone qualifies for you know the Doe Funding. And not everyone necessarily wants the doe funding either because that comes with its own strings attached you know so it definitely has helped I think I'll just say in our business the infrastructure funding that came through you know with the legislation was it was paramount to. What was needed to ignite the energy transition. But that's not solving you know all the problems. It was certainly the ignition source though that hadn't been there in the marketplace prior to that sounds like the. 

36:00.36 

Jeff McAulay 

That's great and it sounds like that there's state leadership too. So New York's ah, clean, energy leadership is part of what's driving their initiative to expand transmission line within the state. Do you see other individual states that can follow that lead. Maybe where it's not. A multi-state project. 

36:16.69 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah there's certainly opportunities like that I think for California and I think a really interesting observation is New York went at it and kind of everything all at once you know to to go back to the movie. That's all out in the marketplace now the everything all at once. New York had policy shifts on solar transmission offshore wind and even advocating for storage and you know new approaches to hydrogen all at the same time which you know it took I think what was in the infrastructure bill and really put it into practice. And what they control within their state. You know, talk about like a localized catalyst effect take advantage of all that at the same time and try to do everything all at once? um, that really attracts development and and really brings people to the table with some ideas that you know might not have been the same idea you know a couple years ago because. They didn't know if the state in the policy environment would support it that really makes a difference and I think it pulls back to that stakeholder connection which is when the governor and elected officials are kind of all saying the same thing and the constituents start to hear it. There starts to be. Ah, common thread in the conversation when an energy developer then comes to those same constituents with a project and they've been hearing it through their local leadership you know and their local elected officials all saying the same thing there is a momentum gained all all around and. 

37:49.62 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

That is really something that I think other states could look to follow a method. They could follow. 

37:55.39 

Jeff McAulay 

Are there innovations on the financing side so we talked about government grants or loan guarantees. We understand that ultimately the financing is coming from ratepayers in many cases. The number 1 lever perhaps is shortening the timeline for development. Which is through intelligent community engagement as you mentioned it sounds like New York is also using rex as part of the financing are there other tools like that that you see being used to finance projects. So. 

38:26.71 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Absolutely I think Rax is one the other interesting thing I think that is happening is you're looking at partnerships and some of those partnerships are are quad ventures. They're not even just tri venturentures anymore and um. You have pension funds and unions and others getting involved to have a stake in long-term supply chain development jobs and economic opportunity. Um, that is not what the calculus looks like a few years ago and I think that is indicative of how much everyone needs this to happen. Because it's not just you know your your bill at your home is important but it's also the economic development that can happen around this project's coming to fruition if you get union members involved and there can be job creation and you know real impact at the local level. Everyone's stakeholder in that process and we're seeing that that translate definitely into the space on financing. 

39:30.73 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Oh Jeff's muted again. 

39:33.39 

chrissass 

All right? It's recording. 

39:35.70 

Jeff McAulay 

And you say don't fight the project invest in it and see this as a job creation Industrial development, Clean energy expansion opportunity. That's a inspiring message. 

39:36.55 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

And hold the check. 

39:45.99 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah, don't fight it. But I think you have to go tell all those people what the benefit is. They're going to get you know and then they won't fight it. You've got to make that tangible and continue that engagement early and often and all the way through and and then they start to see that. 

39:56.28 

Jeff McAulay 

Um. 

40:05.79 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

There's it's more than just the project. It's something that they can get behind and they can see the long term benefit for them in the community. 

40:14.90 

chrissass 

So how how political a topic is energy and then as you're educating people is it becoming less political and more about energy or is it still going to be ah, a political hot potato. 

40:26.53 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Um I think it's it'll always be political because like we were talking about offshore wind you know is Kansas have an offshore wind conversation happening. You know, probably not so it's political in terms of the sense of place I think around the topic. It's like. What makes sense for this group of constituents and so the political landscape will always always feed into that. Um, but I think knowing that is a constant. You know what can you control and it's something we always tell clients. It's like you know, try to work within the bounds of what you can control and understand that. There are certain influencers that you're not going to change and we shouldn't put too much energy towards those I think in terms of developing energy projects like this. Um, there will always be a constant of that political turmoil. Energy policy may change if there's a new president that's going to happen. But you know what can you do to. Influence things and control things locally that's gaining. Trust that's you know, talking to stakeholders you know early and often getting them to understand that even with those changes you'll still be here. That's something that you know you can never strip the politics out of it. But. Spending too much time focusing on that you'll never get the project built. 

41:42.81 

chrissass 

So in that answer what I heard is that you have years of experience coming through because you sounds like you've lived through that and challenged through that How does one end up where any ended up in this role advising folks on transmission and distribution. 

41:59.76 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Oh gosh. That's a that's a loaded question Chris how did I how did I end up here. Um, you know I think and through through my career I've paid attention to what's made something go and not go and. I've also had the luxury of working on some things that were really transformational. Um I worked on liquefied natural gas at a time when liquefied natural gas wasn't a thing in the Us market so that was these kind of transformational moments and energy right now we're at one of those transformational moments with transmission. Like we've not paid this much attention to the grid in probably 100 years and all of a sudden now we're you were like oh my gosh we have all these you know stuff that needs to be plugged in and we need this reliability in the grid because we're also facing incredible challenges around climate change. Um. Grid is is a lot more vulnerable than I think anybody would like to it admit it a few years ago and that's not going to change anytime soon and so I've you know, just pulled all of that knowledge and experience through to this next challenge we have which is how do we then approach you know these really large. Sometimes you know seemingly mysterious projects that are why are we going to build for seven hundred miles of transmission um how do we explain that you know to all the stakeholders and then and move towards a outcome of getting it built. Um, it's fun. 

43:30.57 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

You know I'll give you that. 

43:34.24 

Jeff McAulay 

Sarah you started off as a biologist. So I'm curious if ah, you have maybe advice for other people listening I think when people tend to think of that sort of educational background. Or applying biology into project finance. It is largely to prevent ah that happening. Ah as in to stop or to be totally focused on conservation or preservation and what you're advocating is more of a ah. Sensitive approach to infrastructure development. We're going to build. Let's do it in the right way and be environmentally conscious about those ah impacts because it's necessary. How do you think about that framework and and what advice would you have to people listening who might be coming from a similar background. 

44:18.40 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah, it's a great question because I still go back and talk to undergraduate students and and graduate students about this and they say well I go count birds. What is what I do have anything to do with what you're talking about and I tell them. It's incredibly relevant because. Every project that we support and advocate for they got to go do things like count birds and if we don't get that right? We don't get that survey right? The regulator doesn't accept it and we go back to square one and what is going back to square 1 mean spending more money and what does that mean. Means we didn't deliver the project at the most efficient cost for the ratepayer. So everything we do every step of the way is important so we're doing the best job the most complete job you know as efficiently as possible that development cost which is is where we end up spending a lot of our effort and helping them design the project. If. That's not done right? The project's going to cost more money so we try to explain people. You know every little bit that they add along that journey is important to the outcome on the project every step of the way and you know that's where you know people get their first taste of what it is to work on a project team of 100 people. Everyone's effort matters. 

45:38.95 

chrissass 

But it's it's been an exceptional conversation I have enjoyed hearing about the inflection point you talked about as we get to grid focus on grid and really the education aspect comes through throughout this entire interview of how important it is to get stakeholders and who the stakeholders are on these large and projects. To see if you can get them forward or how to avoid the pitfalls of having too long a process I want to thank you Sarah for joining us on the program today. It's been a pleasure hearing about this process and hopefully we solve the problem because it seems like we need to. 

46:10.81 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Yeah, we we definitely need to solve the problem and 1 of the steps that we've taken recently to help just really inform. What's the tenor of things with the american people wsp just finished our first Paul sent energy survey which really tried to go and take that. Um, that pulse check of what's the public's position on reliability and acceptance and and even awareness of this this energy transition and I think it's got some interesting insights that you know some things we didn't think that people were paying that much attention to so. Really hope everybody can take a chance to look at that survey and find it useful and we'll keep doing our part to move things along. 

46:58.45 

Jeff McAulay 

So Sarah this has been a wonderful conversation. We really appreciate the time on behalf of me Chris and our insiders guide to energy podcast listeners. Thank you very much. 

47:07.66 

Sara Mochrie_WSP 

Thanks! This was great. It was so much fun.