Hydrogen Series Ep. 7 - Scotland's Green Hydrogen Vision: Innovations, Policies, and Global Impact

The Insiders Guide to Energy Hydrogen Mini-Series, featuring a comprehensive discussion with Gillian Martin, the Minister for Energy and Environment of Scotland, delves deep into Scotland's role in the evolving green hydrogen landscape. This episode, set at the Hydrogen Dialogue Summit and Expo in Lambak, captures Martin's enthusiasm and optimism about the transformative potential of hydrogen as an energy source. She emphasizes Scotland's early days in harnessing hydrogen and the necessity to shift from hydrocarbons due to their detrimental environmental impact and geopolitical instability.

Martin outlines Scotland's strategic approach to energy transition, focusing on offshore wind, including pioneering floating offshore wind technology. This shift, necessitated by the inability to integrate all generated energy into the grid, paves the way for hydrogen production and export. She highlights Scotland's past in oil and gas, asserting a parallel in exporting renewable energy expertise globally, especially in floating offshore wind.

The episode also sheds light on Scotland's energy strategy, emphasizing a just transition that encompasses job protection, addressing fuel poverty, and inclusive policies in energy production and usage. Martin underlines Scotland's creative use of limited devolved powers to influence the energy sector, such as leveraging Crown Estate's powers for beneficial licensing and supporting innovative projects and industries.

Martin further discusses Scotland's potential in producing 25 gigawatts of hydrogen by 2045 and fostering international collaborations, particularly in Northern Europe, for hydrogen export. She points out the challenges in infrastructure development and the need for pioneering investments to catalyze the hydrogen market.

The conversation concludes with Martin urging a focus on opportunities rather than challenges in the face of climate change and energy transitions. She advocates a proactive, risk-taking approach to harness renewable energy sources, spurred by global situations like the Ukraine crisis.

The episode is a compelling mix of policy discussion, technological insights, and a forward-looking perspective on green hydrogen's role in global energy transition, reflecting Scotland's ambitious plans and Martin's dynamic leadership.

Transcript

Transcript

00:00:04 Intro

The insiders guide to energy hydrogen mini series is brought to you by the hydrogen dialogue Summit and Expo taking place December 6th and 7th at Nuremberg Exhibition Center.

00:00:15 Intro

This edition of the Insiders Guide to energy hydrogen miniseries is brought to.

00:00:20 Intro

You by FORRS.

00:00:21 Intro

A leading international strategy and management consultancy with focus on the entire trading value.

00:00:26 Chris Sass

Chain welcome to Insiders guide to energy hydrogen series. This week we have a new episode with you. We're going to talk Scottish Power. Roman, welcome back to the show.

00:00:36 Roman Kunert

Hi, Chris. Welcome again. Today. We are here in Lambak at the hydrogen dialogue summit, an Expo. And here we have a very special guest with us today. It's the Minister for Energy and the environment of Scotland. Miss Jillian Martin, welcome.

00:00:57 Gillian Martin

Hello I'm delighted to be here.

00:01:01 Roman Kunert

Gillian from your experience in low carbon hydrogen, how do you view the evolution and the current state of green hydrogen globally and in Scotland?

00:01:13 Gillian Martin

So the way.

00:01:14 Gillian Martin

I view it is with a great deal of excitement, to be honest. I think this is one of the pivotal moments in the energy that I hope that we will look back on and think this was the genesis of something really transformational.

00:01:30 Gillian Martin

We're very much, I think, very much in the early days. Obviously people have always known that hydrogens are a potential energy source, but we've always had the luxury of of, I guess we've had the luxury of of hydrocarbons. But we're now seeing, we're now seeing what hydrocarbons are doing to our planet. We're also seeing the instability.

00:01:51 Gillian Martin

That surrounds and hydrocarbons in terms of, you know, global energy security and the geopolitics around that. We've all seen that over over the piece.

00:02:01 Gillian Martin

In Scotland in particular, we obviously an oil and gas producing nation, but we've always been cognizant of the fact that the the North Sea is.

00:02:14 Gillian Martin

It hit its.

00:02:14 Gillian Martin

Peak. We're on the other side of that peak and we need to future proof our our energy.

00:02:22 Gillian Martin

But we have this amazing opportunity ahead of us because we're going to be transforming our our energy industry mainly into to offshore wind and offshore floating wind floating offshore wind, which is a really new technology for our deep waters.

00:02:39 Gillian Martin

But because we don't have the the ability to take all of that generation and and and put it into the the grid, we've got to do.

00:02:48 Gillian Martin

Something with it?

00:02:50 Gillian Martin

So, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Well, we we know how to make hydrogen, but we also know lots of countries that want to decarbonize their industry.

00:03:00 Gillian Martin

That warrant hydrogen.

00:03:02 Gillian Martin

And if.

00:03:03 Gillian Martin

We can do this.

00:03:05 Gillian Martin

It's going to be transformational. So I would say in an even in a one word answer, my view of it is that we are at the start of something. If we all put our heads together is going to be exciting and transformational.

00:03:21 Chris Sass

Now you're you're you're known for.

00:03:24 Chris Sass

Your wind energy or potential wind energy off off your coast. How is that journey going? Is is you're saying it's early and learning the floating wind is that?

00:03:34 Chris Sass

Already well underway, I mean, your hydrogen policy, I I think you know the first big report I read was a number of years ago in Scotland about hydrogen strategy. So this isn't a brand new strategy. This is something you guys.

00:03:44 Chris Sass

Have been working up to it seems.

00:03:47 Gillian Martin

We have, we absolutely.

00:03:48 Gillian Martin

Have been working up to it because there's so many known quantities around this, so we we have got we had a licensing round called Scotland really had two licensing rounds, one was in town.

00:04:03 Gillian Martin

Which is for the electrification using floating offshore wind, partnering with oil and gas platforms so that they can electrify, which will reduce the production and emissions of existing platforms and oil and gas that's gonna come on stream quicker. And then we're gonna have we'll have Scotland as well. And what the the the difference.

00:04:23 Gillian Martin

We we've, we've been generating wind for for some time, we've been generating onshore and offshore wind for some time, but a few years ago we got some powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament and government around the operation of what's called the Crown Estate, the Crown Estate.

00:04:41 Gillian Martin

Own the sea bed right within a certain amount of of of of miles off of the coast, and they they own the shoreline as well. And that is the the how to operate the Crown Estate was devolved to Scotland and to the Scottish Government and Parliament.

00:05:02 Gillian Martin

We decided that we wanted to do something that I think had really passed us by when we had the first wave of of of oil and gas.

00:05:10 Gillian Martin

And the the the.

00:05:12 Gillian Martin

Amount of development that was associated with that. All the powers around that were reserved to the UK Government. So really yes, a lot of Scots.

00:05:22 Gillian Martin

You know, had jobs off the back of it, but no actual money or tax revenue or any kind of benefits went directly to Scotland.

00:05:32 Gillian Martin

So we had an opportunity with licensing land that was administered by the current estate that we could actually put in a lot of the we put the obviously OfferUp the licences, but also make sure that the conditions associated with those licences benefited the people and the businesses.

00:05:53 Gillian Martin

And the economy of Scotland, so that supply chain associated with the development of all those offshore wind devil.

00:06:00 Gillian Martin

Elements has to be local.

00:06:03 Gillian Martin

A percentage, a large percentage of it has to be local, so we have this opportunity to see that that you know the the revenue associated with that.

00:06:13 Gillian Martin

Really percolate into the Scottish economy and for the benefit of the Scottish people and and I think that that that's where we've done things differently. Obviously we've got existing offshore wind, we've got existing onshore wind, we're looking to double the capacity and onshore wind as.

00:06:31 Gillian Martin

Well, but with Scotland we have got 28 gigawatts of electricity potential there, which is going to be massive, but we're not. We're not coming to this as at a standing start. We already have got an awful lot of operators in Scotland already in, in renewables in general, but on offshore.

00:06:52 Gillian Martin

And onshore wind, but what we're seeing now very much so is a lot of the oil and gas companies and indeed the electricity companies that have been working in Scotland for many decades, they have gone into consortia to get.

00:07:07 Gillian Martin

To bid for these licences and to take these licences and what that means.

00:07:11 Gillian Martin

To us is.

00:07:12 Gillian Martin

Effectively that by by putting of the, putting out the licences for Scotland, we are retaining the people, the staff, the the companies that have worked in Scotland in oil and gas for many years, who've got the.

00:07:27 Gillian Martin

Patient capital to wait until these things are actually going to be developing from and really you know.

00:07:35 Gillian Martin

Not not, you know, not put too much of AI. Suppose I mean if if it had been companies that had been coming into offshore wind and waiting for their return on it, you know, they could be waiting, waiting some time. These companies, a lot of them have got other strings.

00:07:51 Gillian Martin

To their bow.

00:07:52 Gillian Martin

And now they've gone into Scotland as well, so.

00:07:56 Gillian Martin

Not coming from a standing start, but certainly going in a very steep upward trajectory in terms of the gigawatts going to be generated by offshore wind.

00:08:06 Gillian Martin

And a real.

00:08:06 Gillian Martin

Transition from the the types of companies that were maybe hydrocarbon based and their staff, but also having this offshore wind wing as well. So it really is a just transition.

00:08:18 Gillian Martin

In in process as you're looking at it right now.

00:08:23 Roman Kunert

Given these opportunities, you mentioned, what role do you see with Scotland play in the global green hydrogen market in the coming years?

00:08:34 Gillian Martin

I think there's two aspects to it. There's the exporting of the actual product itself, which I think is going to be particularly important for northern Europe.

00:08:43 Gillian Martin

So obviously I'm over here in Nuremberg right now talking to all of of of people from this part of Germany. I think that Germany is a is is a huge market for Scottish green hydrogen we.

00:08:56 Gillian Martin

Know that we've.

00:08:57 Gillian Martin

Got memorandum, memorandum of understanding with that inverting Burg, we've got agreements.

00:09:03 Gillian Martin

About, you know, participation with with Bayan as well and we'll use with Hamburg Nordling this falling. And so we're already starting to cement those links with the German lens.

00:09:15 Gillian Martin

There. So that's one part of it, the actual export and the partnerships for the, for the for the areas of of Europe that are have the demand for green hydrogen but more widely in terms of the global importance. I would say that it would be akin to the global importance that Scotland has as a nation when it was.

00:09:35 Gillian Martin

In oil and gas and an early mover in oil and gas.

00:09:40 Gillian Martin

Us because what Scotland did with all the people, all the engineers that were involved in oil and gas in the 1970s and 80s is we exported that expertise. For example, I'll give you a personal example, my father.

00:09:55 Gillian Martin

Was plumbing engineer.

00:09:57 Gillian Martin

Yeah, I I used to believe when I was younger that he basically built for oil rig because it was ever, you know, this is and he didn't do anything to to dissuade me from that of course you.

00:10:06 Gillian Martin

Know you know, but.

00:10:08 Gillian Martin

He was part of a group, a company that went over to raise Janeiro in the early 80s.

00:10:16 Gillian Martin

And help start up the Brazilian oil and gas industry and working and partnering and and and and mentoring and training a lot of people who then went on to work in Petrobras. Yeah. And all those guys in my dad's office were Scottish. You know, there's a lot that probably quite a lot of Brazilians.

00:10:36 Gillian Martin

Who learn English from those guys? Bad English from those guys. They went on to work for Petrobras and and have, like Aberdonian and Glaswegian accents.

00:10:47 Gillian Martin

So I see the same thing happen, in particular again with floating offshore wind, because we've got, we've got states out there that haven't maybe been able to deploy the fixed floating wind because of the depth of the water that they they have around them. But floating offshore wind will be the technology that they're able to deploy. And I'm very hopeful that.

00:11:07 Gillian Martin

Have a situation like we did with oil and gas. Well, all these engineers went and worked all over the world and set, you know, helped set set up all these, you know, local companies and supply chain. And they still do. I mean, there's lots of supply chain companies work all over the world and that originated from a.

00:11:24 Gillian Martin

The Dean. But it will be in floating offshore wind. I think there's also a great capacity for them to be doing it.

00:11:30 Gillian Martin

In the United.

00:11:30 Gillian Martin

States as well, places like Maine, for example, where they're they're very interested in what we're doing and floating offshore wind. So more Scottish accents going all over the globe. But teaching people bad English but helping them this time.

00:11:45 Gillian Martin

Harness renewable energy, which I think actually is a, is a developed nation, is actually it's it's actually a moral duty to share that expertise around the globe, particularly in countries in the global South.

00:11:58 Gillian Martin

Who have been dealt quite a bad hand when it comes to climate change.

00:12:03 Chris Sass

So you you export.

00:12:05 Chris Sass

The expertise or you you share the expertise or the knowledge from what what you're describing here and it doesn't seem that it's from accident by accident, it comes from the other industry because a lot of the marine energy experience from the past industry from hydrocarbons.

00:12:18 Chris Sass

Actually helps us with the technology as we get into the renewables. So that's actually a log.

00:12:23 Chris Sass

Step but I I guess on the policy side nothing happens with that policy. So what policies have been put in place to help with this agenda to grow this opportunity for green hydrogen particularly so you got the floating offshore winds, you got the power.

00:12:38 Chris Sass

Other policies to support this and to to make that.

00:12:40 Chris Sass

Vision come true.

00:12:43 Gillian Martin

So I mean, obviously we've got our own energy strategy and actually at the moment it's in, we've we've had energy strategies over over the past, the time that my party's been in government, we've actually put out just started this year it was our draft energy strategy and just transition.

00:13:02 Gillian Martin

In and we've put just transition onto energy strategy because it's not just about production of energy and what we're gonna do with energy, it's about this transition from burning hydrocarbons.

00:13:18 Gillian Martin

More using more renewables in a way that protects jobs that enhances the the, the the jobs available, but also doesn't leave anyone behind. I'm not just talking about people that work in energy here, we're talking about people in rural area.

00:13:32 Gillian Martin

Others who who have had tremendous fuel poverty over the years because they haven't been able to access the cheapest source of heating, it's about just transition for island communities. It's about a just transition for people in terms of like, if we want to roll out electric vehicles, say we want to we we have.

00:13:52 Gillian Martin

What plans to ban?

00:13:53 Gillian Martin

The the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by.

00:13:57 Gillian Martin

Certain what is the the justice around that for people that can't afford to buy an electric vehicle? Yeah, so just transition isn't just about people working in energy or about the production of energy. It's about citizens of Scotland not being left behind by anything that we decide in this space. So we're setting out that very.

00:14:17 Gillian Martin

And I would say interesting, but also can be infuriating from a perspective of a minister in a devolved government.

00:14:25 Gillian Martin

Is that you?

00:14:26 Gillian Martin

Don't have all the powers associated with energy policy.

00:14:29 Gillian Martin

So we have to be.

00:14:30 Gillian Martin

Creative. I mentioned one creative thing we did in terms of the use of the powers of the Crown Estate and the licensing for Scotland.

00:14:39 Gillian Martin

We're very much looking.

00:14:42 Gillian Martin

How we use the the powers, but also the spending power that we have in terms of who?

00:14:48 Gillian Martin

We the the industries that we.

00:14:50 Gillian Martin

Support financially in terms of innovation.

00:14:52 Gillian Martin

Funding who we give support to.

00:14:55 Gillian Martin

By our our.

00:14:56 Gillian Martin

Enterprise agencies, what we do about render of our procurement powers, you know, we ask certain things of of, of companies in terms of what they're doing about the carbon footprint, what we do in heat and buildings, what we do about, you know, any kind of projects around.

00:15:13 Gillian Martin

What we incentivise for people for heating their homes, what we do in this transport strategy and what we do in terms of industrial decarbonisation as well.

00:15:23 Gillian Martin

And we tried quite a lot of projects and we we you know, we put hydrogen action plan in place, we have put money into net 0 technology Centre in Aberdeen we have just transitioned funding which we deploy particularly in the North East £500 million on projects that get given so.

00:15:43 Gillian Martin

Cumulatively, we're making so we are accepting that we don't have a lot of power. We don't have any powers over the market for for energy.

00:15:52 Gillian Martin

And some of the real high level policies that are devolved are reserved rather to the UK government, but we do what we.

00:15:58 Gillian Martin

Can in the reserve.

00:16:00 Gillian Martin

To I suppose partner with private enterprise and seed funding around things and just given that so that signalling of the trajectory that Scotland's going in and I think it's working very well. Obviously I would like all the powers, but that's another podcast you.

00:16:20 Roman Kunert

Mentioned the the the transfer of knowledge to southern to South America and to other parts of the.

00:16:28 Roman Kunert

Build you're here in Lubbock to discuss hydrogen green hydrogen with your peers and with others. What else?

00:16:37 Roman Kunert

Is Scotland doing to foster the collaboration on green hydrogen?

00:16:46 Roman Kunert

In the world.

00:16:48 Intro

So we we.

00:16:50 Gillian Martin

Were very much, you know, going, I mean one but one of the delights about my job is I get invited to quite a lot of, like, more international conferences are.

00:17:00 Gillian Martin

In this and I was, uh, you know, I was in Brussels a couple of weeks ago. I was at the Arctic Circle conference up in Reykjavik. You're having these conversations with other governments of small countries in particular. And indeed actually would include the German lender because the German lender probably actually have more powers.

00:17:21 Gillian Martin

Devolved powers than the Scottish Government have, so we're actually in a similar space and we're able to work together a lot easier in that kind of like sub state level as well.

00:17:30 Gillian Martin

A lot of it.

00:17:31 Gillian Martin

Is really centering on the transport, the transport of hydrogen, so on the one hand, Scotland knows that we have got the potential for 25 gigawatts of hydrogen production by 2045. The we have the, you know, Northern European countries looking about how they can use.

00:17:50 Gillian Martin

Hydrogens decarbonized.

00:17:52 Gillian Martin

You've got that state level, you've got that EU level, but you've also got that at at sub state level and and lenders. So we've got, as I mentioned, we've got MSU's in place with Hamburg Invest Fallon. But we're also speaking to the ports as well because there's also that there's the methods of actually getting the hydrogen from Scotland.

00:18:14 Gillian Martin

To northern Europe. So we're speaking to Hamburg ports, Rotterdam and Antwerp.

00:18:21 Gillian Martin

And and I just had a a meeting before they came on here with the the the the by the ship's administration and the energy Minister there about how we can maybe even do some tangible projects which actually get hydrogen from Scotland to Byron in a way that we can actually point to a project and say.

00:18:43 Gillian Martin

OK, we did this.

00:18:44 Gillian Martin

It's small scale. Now let's ramp it up. So it's really starting to it's it's all about communication and relationships, right?

00:18:50 Gillian Martin

Now, and the art of the possible, which is a phrase I absolutely love because it's only by people we have a we have a phrase in in my office. It's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

00:19:05 Gillian Martin

Go ahead and do it. Get on with it. That's very much. I I think the devolved government way of doing things. We can't wait for the we can't wait for the UK Government to have a hygienist.

00:19:18 Gillian Martin

We've got hydrogen strategy.

00:19:21 Gillian Martin

And it's not a political thing. I'm not making a political point. I'm making a can do point.

00:19:27 Gillian Martin

Let's just get on with it. Start making force, forging those relationships and seeing what works. That's how you're gonna have that transformation that I mentioned.

00:19:36 Chris Sass

So it sounds like you're you're trying to get organic growth by by getting things started, right, so you're you're trying to get, you know shipping or or make arrangements where you can test?

00:19:46 Chris Sass

Things is there innovation that's blocking this or is the technology already there to get these projects working? So you said you've met about ports and shipping and moving the hydrogen is the infrastructure.

00:20:00 Chris Sass

Ready yet? Are we waiting for pieces of this?

00:20:03 Gillian Martin

So yeah, yes, I know. I I hate people who say that, but I'm gonna say it yes and no. So one of the the beauties of the fact that we've got Scotland licensing around is that we know that we have to double triple our port capacity to deploy all the the kit that's going to.

00:20:22 Gillian Martin

Be part of these developments.

00:20:25 Gillian Martin

We have an enormous amount of ports in Scotland.

00:20:28 Gillian Martin

Many of many.

00:20:29 Gillian Martin

Of them may be working under capacity. What they possibly could. So we're having to invest in those ports and increase the capacity for those ports to deploy all the kit for Scott for Scotland.

00:20:42 Gillian Martin

But the beauty of that is that once that's all deployed, there will be certain points certain ports rather which will be the ports where the crews go out and maintain them. But there be others that will then have the capacity to do something else with their port side.

00:21:00

OK.

00:21:00 Gillian Martin

Structure there.

00:21:01 Gillian Martin

And the production of hydrogen has been factored into that already. So if I take the Aberdeen S harbour, which is a Newport that's just opened in Aberdeen, we've got our our existing harbour, which has done great work for, you know, keeping oil and gas supply boats in and out and all the ferries to the Northern Ireland and to.

00:21:22 Gillian Martin

Norway. Whatever. We've got a S harbour.

00:21:25 Gillian Martin

And the South harbour is.

00:21:26 Gillian Martin

Huge, but it's also going to have an energy transition zone built right next to it where we're going.

00:21:33 Gillian Martin

To have you know a large.

00:21:35 Gillian Martin

Footprint of hydrogen production there which is going.

00:21:38 Gillian Martin

To be port.

00:21:38 Gillian Martin

Side. So they're very much factoring in that they could be an exporter of hydrogen there.

00:21:44 Gillian Martin

We've got similar things happening up in Shetland, so we have got the old gas terminal.

00:21:50 Gillian Martin

At solemn vow.

00:21:52 Gillian Martin

They're starting to look into hydrogen production as well. So and then we've got the the 4th ports as well. We have actually really interestingly a domestic hydrogen project in a place called methyl in Fife and methyl is one of the areas of Scotland that there wasn't a just transition for because there's a coal mining.

00:22:12 Gillian Martin

Town, one of the most deprived parts of Scotland, but they have a massive, almost disused port side that could be.

00:22:21 Gillian Martin

But H 100 is a hydrogen project that is going to give 100% hydrogen to 300 domestic home, so homes as a as a pilot project for how and it's gonna be electrolysed on the.

00:22:35 Gillian Martin

Side of that port.

00:22:37 Gillian Martin

Taking the electricity from a wind turbine and it's going.

00:22:40 Gillian Martin

To be a a sort of like a.

00:22:41 Gillian Martin

A demonstrator project for how domestic hydrogen can work, and that's in one of the most deprived areas of Scotland. But I was down there and I was looking at this vast expanse of disused port infrastructure and thinking.

00:22:56 Gillian Martin

This could be developed further leak has been developed further just in Edinburgh, so these building blocks are going in place already, mainly to serve as Scotland.

00:23:09 Gillian Martin

But they won't have to service Scotland in forever in terms of the actual development. So they're thinking to the future about what they can be used in. Hydrogen is one of the main the main things that people have are thinking about.

00:23:23 Chris Sass

It it sounds like there's a a huge opportunity. What is a big milestone or what are milestones you're waiting to see for this development actually take place? So it sounds like you have a great early projects going on, but you know that was a quite a bit of development that would need to take place of their market milestones you're waiting for before these projects actually go full speed.

00:23:45 Gillian Martin

Umm, so the licenses have been firmed up right now. So the intong I mentioned in TOG, which is about electrifying the oil and gas, so they'll be the first lot of licences that go into development. So the deployment of Intel will be a big milestone because that's almost like a you know it's a it's a small microcosmic version of Scotland.

00:24:05 Gillian Martin

So most of that we're using float, float, we're floating offshore wind that's used there that will give the supply chain that kind of step up.

00:24:13 Gillian Martin

You know, so they're, you know, they're they're diversifying a little bit from oil and gas and they're servicing the integ project. So that's almost like a step. And then there's the big there's the big game, which is the the Scott win licenses that will come off the back of that. So I would say the deployment of of of the signing of of the licences for in TOG.

00:24:33 Gillian Martin

Will happen, I think in the new year.

00:24:35 Gillian Martin

And then they'll start the development that that's a big milestone because that's almost like proof we're deploying floating offshore wind. But you know we've already got floating offshore wind that's already been deployed. We've got high wind, it's already out there, it's already doing it, I guess a big milestone which.

00:24:52 Gillian Martin

I would be.

00:24:53 Gillian Martin

Very excited about if I could just put that out there.

00:24:55 Gillian Martin

Into the universe as a wish list is the first export of hydrogen to German.

00:25:01 Gillian Martin

What a milestone that's gonna be, however, we.

00:25:03 Gillian Martin

Get it there.

00:25:05 Gillian Martin

In whatever form we get it there, that first export that goes to wherever, then Germany, and that'll be a massive milestone.

00:25:14 Roman Kunert

What are the biggest risks on that on that road to getting hydrogen to Germany or to getting these pilot projects really up and running and further?

00:25:29 Gillian Martin

I think the.

00:25:31 Gillian Martin

The risk is.

00:25:32 Gillian Martin

People, people being too frightened of a risk. Can I can I put? Can I put it like that? So at at the moment there's lots of like potential as to how hygiene can be exported and in what form and what infrastructure has to be built in order to take it wherever. And certainly a lot of the my discussions with them, you know with with.

00:25:51 Gillian Martin

Various stakeholders around this, particularly in the business space is.

00:25:58 Gillian Martin

A big guy needs to go first. Whoever the big guy is once they've gone with particular type of technology or particular type of of of hydrogen, whether it's having ammonia or whether it's like liquefied hydrogen, whoever whoever puts the investment in the big pipeline.

00:26:17 Gillian Martin

And how that's done?

00:26:19 Gillian Martin

But everyone's kind of waiting and seeing, but it's going to need someone to move first, and I almost say that it's like, it's like everyone's talking about hydrogen in a very exciting way. Everyone sees the potential in it, but who's going to be the big guy that goes for that first? Now we're.

00:26:38 Gillian Martin

Scotland's in a place.

00:26:39 Gillian Martin

Where we know that we are not going to be able to put all the electricity that we are producing.

00:26:46 Gillian Martin

Into the grid.

00:26:48 Gillian Martin

So it's a no brainer to make hydrogen. We know that northern Europe and Germany in particular want to take a lot of that hydrogen, so that's two things that are fairly certain.

00:27:03 Gillian Martin

In the middle.

00:27:05 Gillian Martin

Is all these people not taking their risk as to how the, what infrastructure we have, but then we have people that are organisations that are really looking for, I mean I.

00:27:13 Gillian Martin

Was speaking to Subreport.

00:27:15 Gillian Martin

Zebra and and they are so can do. It's unbelievable. Rotterdam or so can do in that space. There's lots of can do people that are saying.

00:27:24 Gillian Martin

We've got the skills, we've got the capacity, we've got the the technology to do this, but it's gonna take, it's almost like gonna take the contracts to go in place, you know, to get the stuff, get the stuff moving and then the price is going to come down once that once that really starts happening.

00:27:42 Gillian Martin

It's yeah, the the.

00:27:43 Gillian Martin

The risk is people not taking the risk.

00:27:47 Gillian Martin

Can I put it that way?

00:27:50 Chris Sass

Absolutely you can. What a what a fantastic conversation we're having. We're, we're we're going quite a bit. Sounds like Scotland's doing a lot. You're in Germany and you're would be excited to see the first deliveries to Germany of hydrogen. So that that's an exciting step or perhaps milestone coming down the road as we bring those together.

00:28:10 Chris Sass

Any final thoughts?

00:28:11 Chris Sass

That pull this interview together for our audience of what you want to leave them thinking.

00:28:17 Gillian Martin

I guess that we've all.

00:28:18 Gillian Martin

Got challenges and I think sometimes in politics things can only be talked about in terms of challenges and and and I only became a minister in March, so I spent a lot more of my time as a politician on the back benches hearing people telling, telling the Scottish Government they couldn't do things over there.

00:28:36 Gillian Martin

They were rubbish forever and everything's a problem and.

00:28:38 Gillian Martin

Everything's a challenge.

00:28:40 Gillian Martin

And and, you know, forgive me. Podcasters accepted the media can be a little bit kind of like, you know, looking at how everything's disastrous rather than the opportunities. One of the joys about becoming a government minister is I go out and I meet people in businesses, either in Scotland or in Europe or whatever that are doing it.

00:28:59 Gillian Martin

The innovators, the the, the, the people who they have got the seed capital to go and do something and to take it to market. The people who've got the technical, logical, technological solution.

00:29:11 Gillian Martin

The the countries that look to Scotland and say you guys are where that's at in terms of floating offshore wind and hydrogen.

00:29:18 Gillian Martin

And it really gives me a lift because all those conversations I have out with the political bubble, with industry, with sectors, are all positive and looking to the future and looking to things as an opportunity and.

00:29:34 Gillian Martin

I think if you were just to believe everything you've read in the media or if you were just complete complete political geek, you would think everything is doom and gloom.

00:29:43 Gillian Martin

I don't see it that way.

00:29:46 Gillian Martin

I think that we have got with the challenges of climate change, tough as they are with the challenges about what do we do about burning hydrocarbons, what do we do about energy security out of them come opportunities.

00:29:58 Gillian Martin

And we have to focus on the opportunities.

00:30:01 Gillian Martin

Because that's the only way things have.

00:30:03 Gillian Martin

Ever got done?

00:30:05 Gillian Martin

Taking risks, grasping opportunities, and having a can do attitude.

00:30:10 Gillian Martin

It could be borne out of something, you know, like the situation in Ukraine where central Europe holds its breath and realises they can't do things the way that's always been done with regard to to natural gas. And that's a terrible situation.

00:30:26 Gillian Martin

But history has shown us that it's always out of real negative situations that have been shocks, that innovation comes.

00:30:33 Gillian Martin

So grasp the opportunities and get on with it.

00:30:37 Roman Kunert

I think we really, really like your refreshing.

00:30:42 Roman Kunert

Positive attitude, it's. I hope it's infectious. Not we're not only here, but with the audience of the podcast and and with your audiences here, Nunberg and elsewhere.

00:30:56 Roman Kunert

We thank you very much for taking the time to be with us here in our podcast. Share your ideas and and then sharing your your thoughts.

00:31:07 Roman Kunert

Thanks and we hope we will be seeing you around.

00:31:12 Gillian Martin

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

00:31:15 Chris Sass

For our audience, we you hope you've enjoyed this content. It's always amazing to hear policy and direction as the countries are going. It's great for the energy transition as we hear the amount of effort going with the common thread that I've heard through these interviews and this hydrogen series is helping kind of democratize energy and and helping all people. That seems to be the goal of the Scottish Minister, just shared what they're trying to do and it sounds like an amazing goal.

00:31:38 Chris Sass

If you enjoy this content, don't forget to subscribe. Follow us and we'll see you again next time on the insiders guide to energy hydrogen series. Bye bye for now.