Join host Chris Sass in episode 156 of "Insider's Guide to Energy" for an engaging discussion with Eloisa De Castro, CEO of Enerpoly, about the transformative world of zinc-ion battery technology. This episode, "Revolutionizing Affordable Energy," delves into Enerpoly's mission to make energy storage more accessible and sustainable through innovative zinc-ion solutions.
Eloisa De Castro shares her journey from aerospace engineering to leading Enerpoly's charge in tackling energy storage challenges. Discover how their zinc-ion batteries offer cost-effectiveness, safety, and environmental sustainability, making long-duration energy storage economically viable and supporting renewable energy adoption.
The conversation explores the global impact of battery technology innovations, focusing on energy security and sustainability. Learn about Enerpoly's approach to localizing production with widely available materials, contributing to a more resilient energy infrastructure.
Gain insights into Enerpoly's strategic focus on innovative materials and manufacturing processes leading to significant cost reductions. Eloisa discusses the milestones, future aspirations, and importance of building a high-performing team and fostering partnerships within the energy ecosystem.
Tune in to this enlightening episode as we navigate the complexities and potentials of modern energy solutions with Eloisa De Castro. Whether you're an industry professional, an aspiring entrepreneur, or an enthusiast curious about the future of energy, this conversation provides valuable insights and inspiration.
Subscribe to "Insider's Guide to Energy" for more episodes that bring you closer to the people and technologies shaping our energy future. Follow us on our website and your favorite podcast platforms to stay updated with the latest trends and discussions in the energy sector.
Join host Chris Sass in episode 156 of "Insider's Guide to Energy" for an engaging discussion with Eloisa De Castro, CEO of Enerpoly, about the transformative world of zinc-ion battery technology. This episode, "Revolutionizing Affordable Energy," delves into Enerpoly's mission to make energy storage more accessible and sustainable through innovative zinc-ion solutions.
Eloisa De Castro shares her journey from aerospace engineering to leading Enerpoly's charge in tackling energy storage challenges. Discover how their zinc-ion batteries offer cost-effectiveness, safety, and environmental sustainability, making long-duration energy storage economically viable and supporting renewable energy adoption.
The conversation explores the global impact of battery technology innovations, focusing on energy security and sustainability. Learn about Enerpoly's approach to localizing production with widely available materials, contributing to a more resilient energy infrastructure.
Gain insights into Enerpoly's strategic focus on innovative materials and manufacturing processes leading to significant cost reductions. Eloisa discusses the milestones, future aspirations, and importance of building a high-performing team and fostering partnerships within the energy ecosystem.
Tune in to this enlightening episode as we navigate the complexities and potentials of modern energy solutions with Eloisa De Castro. Whether you're an industry professional, an aspiring entrepreneur, or an enthusiast curious about the future of energy, this conversation provides valuable insights and inspiration.
Subscribe to "Insider's Guide to Energy" for more episodes that bring you closer to the people and technologies shaping our energy future. Follow us on our website and your favorite podcast platforms to stay updated with the latest trends and discussions in the energy sector.
06:20.00
chrissass
Welcome to the insider's guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass and today with me is Eloisa de Castro. Eloisa welcome to the program.
06:32.50
Eloisa
Hi Chris nice to be here.
06:35.70
chrissass
I Am excited to be here batteries and storage are one of the topics I enjoy talking about and you guys are doing something innovative. So why don't we start with what problem are you looking to solve.
06:45.41
Eloisa
Well, we're looking to solve stationary energy storage and what's really important there is to make stationary energy storage a lot more affordable. What we've really seen deployed so far in stationary energy storage from the electricity. Um, system perspective is really that most of the installations have been for short durations. We're looking to get more longer duration energy storage on the market and supporting the adoption of renewable energy.
07:16.26
chrissass
All right? So one of the things I do do on this podcast is I kind of ask some the more basic questions. So it seems simple long duration short duration that seems like a definition we would all understand what is your definition of a longer duration storage solution.
07:35.00
Eloisa
That's an excellent question because a lot of people have different definitions for long duration energy storage. So what? enter pulley is working on is we're working on a what I would consider medium duration energy storage which is actually. Around four to ten hours and energy storage short duration I would say less than 4 hours and very long duration for me is greater than the 10 but. What we are seeing because the market isn't so developed in even the medium duration energy storage is that we're already considering that long duration energy storage that we really need to get in order to get more renewables.
08:17.90
chrissass
And then what are some of the challenges of that medium duration or that longer duration storage that aren't taking place today. Why don't we have that yet.
08:27.98
Eloisa
Well, what's really interesting is that we do have batteries that last for longer durations. The issue is that these batteries that we currently have in the market today are still too expensive to be able to deploy. In what we would consider longer duration energy storage. So in the stationary energy storage market what we really need to see are the battery costs going down so that we can deploy a larger battery like let's say if you have a certain power requirement then.
08:48.86
chrissass
So so.
09:05.65
Eloisa
If you have a longer duration of that power requirement say 4 times as much then you need 4 times the size of battery and as it is today many of those possible solutions are still too expensive to deploy and feasibly have ah in the economic sense. So if you are able to get the affordableness of the batteries or the cost of the batteries to go down then you'll be able to more affordably deploy. What is a longer duration energy storage.
09:38.30
chrissass
Okay, so what I've heard you say so far is economics are part of the reason we don't see this at scale not technology is that true or the technology drive in the economics. Um.
09:46.90
Eloisa
That's right, That's right, The economics are a huge part of the issue and we need to have batteries that are economic for these longer duration energy storage. As well as having good performance in that long duration energy storage.
10:04.49
chrissass
And what kind of size are we talking for this station area. Are we talking behind the meter. Are we talking Grid Scale What? what are we looking at for your problem statement that you're trying to solve.
10:18.90
Eloisa
We're looking at primarily what will be growing right now in the near future is going to be behind the meter in commercial and industrial. Ah, the solution that that we are aiming to offer is a modular. Energy storage. So this is something that can be be designed for something smaller like renewable um in your residential so anywhere from several Kilowatt hours to all the way up to smaller grid scale and we have seen modular batteries deployed in. You know, greater than a hundred you know, maybe up to thousands of Megawatt hours before
10:58.31
chrissass
And then what kind of technology are you leaning on to do this I mean we see a lot of Lithium ion. We see flow batteries out there. What what are you all focused on. So.
11:07.57
Eloisa
So enter pulley focuses on zinc eye on batteries what we do is we innovate on batteries made on the ano outside with zinc on the cathode side with Manganese Dioxide and these are. Historically very affordable material so that we can reach these very affordable batteries for the stationary energy storage.
11:29.70
chrissass
And is is this a technology that's proven and been around and you're just refining or are you developing new technology here. So.
11:38.41
Eloisa
We've had batteries made with Zinc and manganese the oxide before so zinc and Manganese the oxide are actually the materials that go into zinc alkaline nonrechhargeable batteries. These are the same ones that you have in double a batteries that can power. Ah, remote controls toys ah small devices and they have really been able to in the past several decades ago revolutionized that industry and this is an existing supply chain that we're building off of but making this. Innovation in that our batteries are a lot more rechargeable and in that sense applicable to stationary energy storage.
12:21.53
chrissass
Okay, so more rechargeable is that in terms of number of times that you can charge the battery and discharge the battery and and what about performance is that you know if I want to get you know if we have the conversation between between power and energy and I want to get all of that power out of the to get everything out of my battery.
12:26.83
Eloisa
Yes, yes.
12:41.38
chrissass
Um, how how how does that impact stationary as opposed to let's say an Ev battery.
12:47.98
Eloisa
Well ev batteries really the ev batteries really depend on ah being small and light and they do need to be high power what we achieve with Zinc and manganese dioxide batteries. Is an energy product. So we're not aiming for a power product. Um and power products are our things that can go into the shorter duration energy storage for longer duration. It's fine for for the the power to be released over time. And hence longer duration for enter pulleys zinc and Manganese the oxide batteries the ideal or recommendation is discharge durations of 2 to 10 hours and really we're hitting that sweet spot when. When you get to about 4 hours which is great because this is the area where stationary energy storage really needs to expand a bit more.
13:50.24
chrissass
Um, and then I guess so they get the discharge time but typically are you not having a sudden demand. So if I'm a manufacturing firm and I have your stationary batteries. Um, and. I'm not anticipating using them until until I need to use them right? or or is this a scheduled kind of event ahead of time is this. This is not kind of like the spot market for energy gets hard for me and I use my battery type of thing I Guess I'm a little confused by your answer.
14:16.11
Eloisa
Well, if you look at the way that that stationary energy storage is really expected to be used when you have it collocated with renewable energy is that you're spending a portion of your day charging the battery and that may be something like. 8 to 10 hours and you need to discharge your battery usually during ah the let's say if you have solar then you would be charging the battery during the day and then you would use the battery during the night when you're not generating any energy from your solar.
14:55.10
Eloisa
Um, you could also use the battery for energy shifting during the day. So if you have high peak prices during the the hours of ah you know, just um, around noon and a little bit afterwards that's typically when peak prices are. Then what you can do is discharge your batteries at that time instead of paying the higher prices for energy and then charge your batteries in the evening when the prices are low and so these are just a few examples of use cases where. You're not waiting for the battery for a long time and you are actually planning on using the battery during the day at a certain time and ah recharging it at a different time.
15:41.68
chrissass
Makes sense now you're the Ceo of enterloy or enter poly I'm sorry um, what exactly is the mission. So you're building module batteries is is it actually production or is it technology that you're focused on.
15:44.45
Eloisa
Next.
15:55.95
Eloisa
We're doing both so we're innovating on the battery technology and we're building battery cells and battery packs. So what we've innovated on is not only the electrochemistry that goes inside the battery. But also the manufacturing process. We've tailored. The existing Lithium Ion battery manufacturing process which is well established. We know that it's very scalable and we've tailored it to our battery chemistry so that we can use very similar machines use very similar skills. That's what's. We're already existing in the battery industry and make a process that with a few improvements because of the the safety and the I would say the the simplicity of the technology um in in the fact that it's ah very. You know there are fewer steps to build it then we can really make a very scalable manufacturing process and produce many batteries and address the need for for the stationary energy storage to support the electricity energy transition.
17:06.92
chrissass
Ah, you're also headquartered in Sweden if I'm not mistaken so you're somewhere that's pretty advanced in the energy transition compared to other countries. Perhaps where I'm sitting here in the us I would may argue that Sweden may be ahead in some areas. Um. Is your market starting out in the swedish market is this where your your your home base is or your your first footprint.
17:28.96
Eloisa
It's definitely our first footprint when it comes to manufacturing but this is a technology that's needed worldwide. It's definitely something that's that's very valuable in Europe the way that we've been seeing the markets develop is that is that there's there's really an increased need. To find ah solutions that you know where you can have a local solution and have a local supply chain of batteries that's something that's important in Europe it's something that's important also in the us and when we have a technology made with Zinc and banganese dioxide. Because there the materials are so abundant throughout the world then there is that option of having that local supply.
18:15.60
chrissass
so got it so so I think you know we're we're talking supply chain issues or supply chain improvements and I've seen that quite a bit in the battery space. We've had a number of guests coming in talking about that that seems to be 1 of the areas where there's a room for improvement. Um now. Is this are you seeing this in the lifecycle of a battery then dramatically reducing maybe a carbon footprint or the impact on the environment by doing this this way.
18:41.10
Eloisa
I do think so with with being able to have a local supply that does lower the carbon footprint when it comes to distribution interestingly Zinc and Manganese Dioxide already if you compare. With the the footprint of the materials to lithium iron phosphate batteries lfp then we're getting a significant reduction in the carbon footprint already on top of that in the manufacturing process There are also significant reductions in energy consumption and you know this comes from the safety of the battery for example, um, for those that are familiar with link with lithium ion battery manufacturing then. They would know that dry rooms are a very significant portion of the energy consumption for lithium ion battery manufacturing and enter pulley technology is very safe and does not require a dry room environment and therefore we can reduce the energy consumption. There. We can also reduce the energy consumption because we don't use and nmp. We have fewer steps in the total process and in our last process we have about 90% ah faster formation process.
20:11.83
Eloisa
So we are able to also reduce the time for for preparing the battery for delivery.
20:17.52
chrissass
And then I guess why hasn't this taken place before why? Why does it take a bunch of innovators and founders to bring this to the technology because batteries aren't particularly new. We've had them for quite some time. So why disruption now.
20:36.43
Eloisa
That's true and I think that people have been working on. You know, relevant ah battery technologies to to really improve improve the supply chain for quite some time. Um, so it's the really the combination of the innovation that we have. So using using the materials and then making them far more rechargeable is the first part but then also when there's a need for it. So in 2020 right after covid. Ah. It was really the time when the technology had reached the laboratory you know had been proven at laboratory scale and was ready to be commercialized and turned into a commercial product and because of the timing. You you know with with the emphasis on the supply chain coming from ah coming from the difficulties that we had during covid and ah now also more recently after what's gone gone on in ah Russia and Ukraine. Europe is really pushing to have ah better ah better control over its energy. This is something that's become increasingly important.
21:59.96
chrissass
So You talked about the supply Chain. You're saying it's you know, maybe energy security issue. So a Zinc Ion battery is that mean I can source things more locally or I guess help me understand how how that alleviates the the fear of ah. You know, energy security will moreroom.
22:19.89
Eloisa
Well, there are more than 60 ah 60 different countries that produce zinc. So so this is this is um, an issue that the battery industry has really been seeing um and really been more concerned. About in the last decade or so or maybe even more and being able to use materials that are not only abundant but available worldwide and already have this high trl level of the supply chain is incredibly. Attractive for being able to build the technology that you need now and being able to scale it up in time to address. Ah the the needs of of the energy system.
23:07.10
chrissass
So speaking of scaling up I Saw a news release that you guys had just won a grant. Maybe you can share a little bit about the grant you just won what is that and how does that help you scale.
23:17.15
Eloisa
Yeah, we recently secured a grant from the swedish energy agency was and I'll say it in in both us dollars and swedish kroner. So it's eighty eight point five million swedish kroner and that's eight point four million u s dollars and this is a really significant grant for us because it jumpstarts the building of our first fully functional plant for manufacturing zinc I and batteries. We're going to be building a megafactory one hundred megawatt hours per year capacity. 4 zinc I n batteries and it's going to be in stockholm sweden.
24:00.53
chrissass
And now when you have something like this is this a little bit like ah power purchase agreements or things like that have you pre-sold battery or capacity then to folks when you build the plant is that part of how you finance these kind of plants. Yeah.
24:11.97
Eloisa
The way that we finance the plant is I mean it's a combination of grants and investment. So we will also be seeking our series A in addition to this grant and other state funding that we ever see.
24:30.22
chrissass
Awesome! Awesome! Um, where are you at at this stage of a company. How how big is your organization today. How many engineers do you have working for you.
24:39.37
Eloisa
Well we have 17 people and ah I believe that 15 of them have engineering degrees. Although ah, not all of us work within engineering anymore. Yeah.
24:49.20
chrissass
So that's awesome and with your 17 people you build this plant are you looking to then continue to build other plants or license your technology out to others as you get growing.
25:01.17
Eloisa
The aim is to really do what's necessary to commercialize the technology. What what? our approach is is because we we have developed this technology the electrochemistry. That's always going to be our core competency right. But we've also developed manufacturing processes and Ip around the production of the technology and this is something that is very important to being able to commercialize the technology because you know it's It's ah essential for having a technology that works and. The the process innovations that we have are essential to having a technology that scales This is something that we can. We can commercialize by you know, continuing to to build more plants. Ah, but we're also ah open to.
25:44.23
chrissass
Now.
25:57.88
Eloisa
Having partnerships with other organization in in this entire journey.
26:02.58
chrissass
That that was going to be the next question is kind of the ecosystem because you said that your your storage is different. Um, and so do you need to partner is it good to partner within the ecosystem. For example, if there's wind or if there's other solar did. Does the way you storage make it different way you store or the amount of capacity change the way either those other elements perform and do they need to marry up Somehow is there any kind of you know need for the companies to work together to optimize based on what you can now do stuff.
26:36.41
Eloisa
Yes I think that there's a need to optimize at the the various stages of development. So I mean what we do is we develop the battery cell. We're now developing battery packs and there are areas that you can optimize for certain applications.
26:37.21
chrissass
Need to.
26:56.42
Eloisa
Um, and these are all you know partnerships that that we value within within the industry and the the requirements of an application may vary slightly um at the end of the day it does. Continue to to rely on the affordability of the batteries. So The cost of the batteries and and so this is something that we can innovate on in the the component level in the battery cell level The you know likely the most but I. I Have seen that you know in other parts of the the energy industry even when there is a an innovation in a a small component the the way that it's been deployed and the. The decisions that you make the design decisions that you make and the way that it's been deployed has affected the overall affordability of the product. So yes, the short answer is yes it it does matter for us to have these types of partnerships and to be able to understand how we can continue to deliver even more value past. Past where we specialize in the value chain and we can do that through partnerships.
28:10.65
chrissass
Awesome! And then it sounds like the electrochemistry is is your company's intellectual property or specialty. Um, do you go down to managing the cells or do you just use software um off the shelf to do the kind of management of your batteries. So.
28:25.13
Eloisa
We do the management of the cells the algorithms that are closest to the battery cell. Yes.
28:30.72
chrissass
Awesome! Well cool. So there's there's a lot of transformation coming I guess how do you see this dramatically in changing things. So you know turn the clock ahead 5 years your your plants are up and running what's going to be different. What am I Goingnna notice different about your solution and what impact have you made.
28:50.47
Eloisa
I Think that we're going to see a lot more energy storage deployments in buildings definitely and and you know as as we're seeing an emphasis on being able to Deploy. Um. Battery systems that are easy to work with for Um, you know fire departments or for for permitting reasons then we're going to see um a lot more deployments of Zinc Ion batteries ah particularly ah our chemistry which is very safe. In the kinds of applications that really require this and value that that part in addition to the affordability of the batteries.
29:33.50
chrissass
What about density and weight or is there Significant difference between the the weight of these battery packs these modular systems.
29:42.15
Eloisa
Yes, there is so right now the batteries that we have are about one and a half times larger in size than a lithium iron phosphate battery the lfp and in stationary applications.
29:44.46
chrissass
All the.
30:00.94
Eloisa
Ah, the the energy density is not something that's incredibly important most of the the people that are deploying energy storage for stationery are really looking at um, you know at other factors you know, depending on the application. Um, affordability is really the most important one I I think I sound like um ah like a recording of myself. But it really it really is always the the first question that we get when we speak to um people that are deploying.
30:23.89
chrissass
Yeah, yeah.
30:39.32
Eloisa
Stationary energy storage and and ah size and weight. Ah don't matter in in particular um weight is really is really less important than than ah volumetric as well.
30:55.17
chrissass
Right? So so footprint is what people are looking at but they're basically looking at your solution is it economic alternative to make the project pencil out and then and the rest is tough is secondary is what I'm hearing you say um.
31:06.59
Eloisa
Yes, I'd say so.
31:10.86
chrissass
Which does make sense right? We saw that with solar when solar panels finally became more cost effective. They became universally accepted everywhere right? And so I think storage is well comparatively to what the early days. Um I think battery storage is the same right when we see price come down I think we'll see more connection of buildings that are putting solar in. Um. Percentage in Sweden right now are also adding storage as a component is that pretty much universal yet or is it still putting just solar in and and thinking about the battery storage.
31:41.23
Eloisa
I don't have the exact numbers for for for how many are also installing batteries when they've installed solar but we have seen that ah the the numbers for for europe that it. Is very advantageous so when um, solar installation I'm sorry so when we see that there's a solar installation and it isn't paired with batteries then. Typically the amount of the energy that's generated that becomes used by the owner is something like 30 to 40 but when you pair the solar with with batteries then you're able to significantly increase your self-consumption of the energy that you're generating. So it goes to to between seventy and eighty percent usually and so that's a double of the the self-consumption of the the amount of energy that you're producing so it is a very attractive.
32:47.26
chrissass
Um, and then what technologies are you competing with in the future. So we know what's on the truck. We know you're more cost effective today. What keeps you awake at night is a Ceo going. Okay, who else is going to encroach on the same space because it's got to be a race to get the least expensive across the board if that's. If. That's one of the gates I'd imagine others are trying to solve the same problem.
33:09.97
Eloisa
Yeah, well I think that the the big challenge is being able to scale up really quickly. So so ah the the way that that I see it is um in stationary energy storage.
33:27.80
Eloisa
What we really see as a challenge in scaling up or what we really see as a challenge for ah emerging battery technologies is being able to scale up and compete in price.
00:00.00
chrissass
Pretty interesting. One thing that comes to mind is does it really matter where production is I mean there's there's some advantage to having local production. There's some for having it offshore. What is your thoughts on where production should be.
36:16.54
Eloisa
I would just want to say that I I do think that local production is going to be a very important part of sustainability. It's going to be a very important part of energy security. And it's going to be an important part of achieving the net 0 goals that we have globally doesn't matter which geography you're from so I I do expect that local production is going to be ah, very essential. Part of our business model. We are manufacturing these batteries in Sweden I mean we have we have swedish ip in the battery cell ah electrochemistry as well as. The battery cell manufacturing process and this is something that I know is very valuable in Europe and I am american myself I understand that it is also important for. The us to have a local production both for both for economic and ah sustainability reasons. So so what we would like to do is find the the best way to commercialize the technology.
37:51.63
Eloisa
And local production is definitely going to be a big part of it.
37:55.96
chrissass
For me is I've noticed a number of people that come from the aerospace industry in Energy. Why is that.
38:20.12
Eloisa
Um, why is that That's a very good question I can tell you a little bit about how I think my aerospace background helps with an energy. So.
38:34.72
Eloisa
Mean in in aerospace any time that you solve a problem you need to take a full systems approach to it right? You need to make sure that ah the the electrical design that you're working on is something that works very well with the. Mechanical design. Ah you have to take several things you you know you have to to power satellites I've previously worked on satellites that were powered by solar panels with batteries as backup. You know? So so I mean it is a similar system and so you take. All of these different fields and you put them together. You make a very reliable system and that's required for making something work in the the space industry and this kind of reliability is also something that's incredibly important in the energy industry. Ah, you mean can you imagine if you know we we still today had ah you know a lot of ah blackouts every day you know that's just something that that ah over time you want to to continuously increase reliability. So. Making sure that all of these different components work. Well together is a big part of that I think that ah anybody who's interested also in working in in aerospace is interested in working in innovative technology and ah and especially today in the energy industry.
40:11.40
Eloisa
Ah, we're looking to to really deploy innovative technology The kinds of sustainable technology that I think when we were studying engineering really wanted to be able to deploy and then and then thought oh ah, too bad. It can't be deployed because it's not affordable enough. But now we're making we're we're making these changes and we're making all of it possible and that's that's what we need. We need good people working on this problem.
40:35.22
chrissass
What an awesome conversation and and what passion is coming through I can see why you do what you do it. It was great to to see see that passionate answer about the engineering. Um, it does seem like you're working to engineer the costs out of the or reduce the costs and engineer the costs Down. Ah, which tends to happen in my experience when technology Matures So That's that's an awesome thing to see um I Guess one last question I would have is what Milestones Do you hope to see over the near term that that show this change taking place. So.
41:17.90
chrissass
you're the Ceo of a company that is disrupting. You're you're bringing a lower cost solution. You're bringing a Zinc Ion technology so you say a safer different technology. What are the next milestones that you want to see. To show that you're on your path to success.
41:37.42
Eloisa
Well, we'll know that we're on our path to success when we can build a production system that is really competitive with what is industry standard today so being able to reach high-speeds high yields.
41:54.41
Eloisa
And being a fully optimized system that that can can really compete um in efficiency and in cost with the best of the best in the industry in order to achieve this. We've already started to. To build our team of very high performing people and we aim to continue to do so and I mean I Really believe in this team and I think that they're going to do a great job.
42:21.74
chrissass
Awesome I thank you for taking your time to share your story with us today. Thank you so much for being our guest first. It has been a pleasure for our audience I hope you've enjoyed this conversation and getting insight in some new and emerging technology and how it's going to help reduce the Of storage for you.
42:29.72
Eloisa
Um, thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to be here.
42:41.46
chrissass
we will talk to you again next time on the insiders' guide to energy podcast bye-bye for now.