This week, Chris is joined by Joe Catarella, Partner at North America Energy & Resources at Baringa. With more than 18 years experience in the energy sector in the US and abroad, Joe discusses the range of considerations within the energy transformation process. Where does the US stand in the transformation process and what can they learn from other nation’s approaches?
This week, Chris is joined by Joe Catarella, Partner at North America Energy & Resources at Baringa. With more than 18 years experience in the energy sector in the US and abroad, Joe discusses the range of considerations within the energy transformation process. Where does the US stand in the transformation process and what can they learn from other nation’s approaches?
06:36.67
chrissass
Welcome the insider's guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass and with me today is Joe Catarella Joe welcome to the program. It is fantastic to have you here?
06:42.31
Joe Catarella
Hey Chris thanks great to be here.
06:49.90
chrissass
Start every show by saying the same thing which is I have a pretty good idea of who you are but our audience doesn't yet know who you are so before we get into all the interview and where we're going to go Perhaps it makes sense to start by who you are what company you represent and what do you do.
07:04.22
Joe Catarella
Sure? Yeah Chris so Joe Caterella I'm a partner for Beringa. We’re a global management consulting firm started in the UK branched out across Europe into Asia and now we're focusing growth here in North America. Have about 18 years in the industry focused. Um, um, ah around commodity trading with a real specialty around utilities and helping them do business transformations. You know as the markets change right? and technology change is kind of a line. You know, get them ready for it. Um, which is pretty ah important right now. Ah with where we're going. You know in the us we just passed the ah in inflation reduction act. Um, so there's a big push in renewables. Um, and so you know as far as from ah you know a lot of my conversations with clients nowadays. It's around that and you know how. How they're going to play into the power market just looking back at when I got into the industry. You know here's an interesting nugget There was like 350 commodity trading power shops in the us probably about five years ago there was about 3 in Houston and now we're seeing a significant shift back. To you know individuals and companies wanting to get back into that into this space.
08:20.83
chrissass
And so you mentioned power trading which is of course where my day job falls into that space as Well. Um I Guess you mentioned utilities and you know the inflation reduction Act. So How do those things go together because ah utility is kind of mostly a regulated kind of thing here in the Us or am I misunderstanding.
08:42.00
Joe Catarella
Yeah I would say in the us there's you know if you looking at like from a power generate and generat's perspective. You have a regulated utility. They are obviously regulated but where the inflation reduction act applies to them is that is the first I would say like federal mandate. But historically all of the regulations are more locational right? So we'll just take for example, um, organ which recently passed some of the most stringent renewable you know, um, outlines there you know by 2030 um, all of the power producers in in Oregon need to have 80% of their generation has to be true green renewable and then by 2040 it has to be 100%. So obviously they're you know they're looking to figure out you know how are they going to bridge that gap from where they are today. Um. You know to be able to hit those benchmarks and I think and that's where the ira right comes into play because it does open the avenue um, for these types of investments. Um for them to make themselves. But then also to partner um you know with you know, other you know whether it's lending entities or venture capitalists right? because the. The tax credits right? that are associated with it are pretty significant.
09:59.82
chrissass
Yeah, we focused a little bit in a previous episode of how that impacted hydrogen specifically right? where the act and where the money was going for that was quite significant I guess from these totally renewable. You know. Can you define what? that means let's say in Oregon's case because yeah, that that may seem obvious but it may not be obvious so let's talk about that for a second.
10:27.65
Joe Catarella
Sure? yeah, so like in the us ah with every you know renewable every power that's generated by renewable facility that it's given an ah renewable energy credit right? So it's 1 for 1 um, so historically like I'm in Texas um in ercot. Um I have the opportunity to pur to when I'm going through my provider decide if I want it to be one ah hundred percent renewable or to be a mix etc. Well historically how they've done that is they would just produce whatever power they had right or purchase whatever power but they have whether it be green or dirty. Ah. And then they would have to go and procure the renewable energy credits to cover my position right? So that's kind of the historically how the market's done and I would say recently now with the you know impacts on climate and just I would say kind of just a ah culture change from the consumer. Um, they really want 24 by 7 actual green power right? And so obviously if you look at the technologies that are associated with renewables. You have wind and solar. Um, you know those are you know, mainly done during the daytime obviously with solar and then wind is obviously is associated to um, you know there's a higher wind output. You know during the day. Um, so now with the battery technology that's coming along. You know that's allowing you know, utilities and integrate ip and even you know local um customers right? Capture you know power to use in those off hours.
11:57.36
chrissass
And so you mentioned a little bit about the Rex and there was a lot of gainsmanship with racks in the early days right I mean you'd buy it from another state or another location and it make yeah power generation at 2 different locations doesn't necessarily equal right? So is that.
12:03.96
Joe Catarella
E.
12:14.86
Joe Catarella
Um, yep.
12:16.87
chrissass
Is that you're a kind of over now or are people being held more accountable or is the rec system still being gamified a bit.
12:23.43
Joe Catarella
I mean I would still It's still. There's still a market out there. You know like I said before a lot of the legislation regulations are still. You know, localized to so to 2 areas right? So for example I grew up in Louisiana and right now they don't have any. Requirements right? for the generators there to go 100% renewable versus or you know organ you know which we just talked about California is another 1 right? that has a pretty stringent regulations right? You know from a greenhouse gas perspective. They count. You know. If you're producing power or you're importing power into California and you have to identify. You know what? the source was um, you know for that molecule.
13:05.70
chrissass
But Greenhouse gas is different than straight renewable because Nuclear would fall within that then if it's just a greenhouse gas requirement. Perhaps yes.
13:14.69
Joe Catarella
Um, ah yes.
13:18.72
chrissass
And so is that in the mix that you're seeing as well is nuclear making a comeback or is it ah is it part of our future solution or an interim part of the solution.
13:28.40
Joe Catarella
So that's a good question because I don't hear it talked about that much in the industry which is quite surprising. There is a portion of the in the ira where there are benefits tax credits for um, you know, existing. Nuclear facilities. Um, they're kind of bucketed into kind of 2 areas. Um one that are kind of not advanced. Those are ones that were developed prior to 2005 and then ones that are advanced that are 2005 forward? Um, and there is some significant savings for them. You know, for example. Um, there, there's you know obviously with ira there's all these you know, kind of I don't want to say restrictions. But there's check marks that need to be done so like you know from a prevailing wage perspective. Um, apprenticeship programs right? If they if these entities can handle the do the checkboxes there. Um. You know they can get up to ah like a $15 credit per me Megawatt hour now it's scaling because once it if you sell that power for $25 or higher then that $15 you know scales back over time. But. You know there's definitely more of a conversation around. You know the typical renewable you know wind solar battery biomass. That's definitely the topic of conversation here in the us but in just shot.
14:54.85
chrissass
Biomasses is one of the topics because we see biomass in Europe I happen to live in Europe at the moment and I think a lot of it comes from the us it shipped over a lot of the pellets and things that are burnt so are people actually considering new biomass. Projects or is this more like burning trash type things I mean what? what kind of things are we looking when you say biomass there's more pellets.
15:18.89
Joe Catarella
Yes, so that's ah, um, so you know I like you know from a biogas perspective. You know you have like renewable natural gas now is a big thing. Ah yeah, no sorry yeah biogas. Yeah, ah yeah.
15:27.36
chrissass
A biogas I thought you said biomass I'm sorry okay I mis so understood. Okay, so yeah, biogas makes sense all day long. Yeah I got that? Um, so all right? So we've got all these different technologies out there. The 1 thing that you didn't talk about and. Carbon capture. So there's some assets that are out there that that people may not want to be stranded quite yet and they may try to put carbon capture technology in there. How does that fall into the plan here.
15:54.65
Joe Catarella
Yeah, so you know in the ira there was a significant portion allocated to carbon capture. Um, if you look historically um, you know there was kind of 2 main areas I would say industries that were that were how can I say this. It was commercially viable. Um. To to participate in carbon. So that was around natural gas processing ethanol um, you know, based off the benchmarks you know prior to the Ira um, yeah, was kind of like a breakeven point more of research development. You know, not a big you know opportunity to grow um with the induction of the ira.
16:30.89
Joe Catarella
It has gone from. You know there's kind of 2 there's if you use it right? or versus you store it right? if you store it that means you're actually capturing it and then you're going to go buried in the ground or somewhere but just from a baseline ah use perspective. It used to be about a $25 now that's up to $60 right? So that's a $35 gap so especially for like natural gas processing and ethanol. It's a lot more commercial viable. Um, so but the theory is right is that you're going to see a lot more investment there but it also opens up into some other industries you know ammonia you know, development of hydrogen cement petroleum. It gets them. In the money and you know so companies at the end of the day are always trying to make money and so by putting these types of levers out there that give them ah more. You know, less chance to lose money in the long run I think you'll start seeing a significant investment.
17:29.75
chrissass
So on the utility side and energy transition side. We spent a lot of time on the program talking about demand. Um, you know, controlling demand side right? and how that plays into an energy transformation. Where are the customers you're talking to in their journey along you know. So if I'm a utility chugging along here in maybe the Southern United States where we have to be talking today. Um, where are they on this journey.
17:54.19
Joe Catarella
I think they're at the guinea right? if you look you know like I mentioned before you know Bringo were a global company started in Europe you know in my conversations with my colleagues over there. You know they're ten years ahead of where everyone is here in the Us. Um, you have some big players out there like nextera who's you know one of the largest renewable players. You know, as clean energy is another one that's kind of out there doing back to the true green product. The 24 by 7 you know, renewable. But you're seeing that what we're seeing is an influx. Of companies from Europe right? starting to make a significant investment here in the us and you know what I see happening is you know they've done that over there. They're going to bring all their lessons learned over here. We have the ira now that's going to allow significant investment. Um, to take place and so hopefully the transition will move faster than it did in Europe but we're today I would say we're definitely behind the curve. You know, just to throw some crazy numbers out there. You know if you look at like the ira you know which is really focused on tax credits. Um, you know there's $370000000000 worth of. Tracks tax credits that are available. You do some funny you know some funny fuzzy math. You know you're looking at one point one trillion dollars of investment right? that is going to you know ah take place you know in this area. Um over the next ten years right and that's you know.
19:27.86
Joe Catarella
Compared to like the GDP of Mexico which is one point one trillion and the GDP of Sweden I think is like 550000000000 right? So that just shows you the amount of capital right? that is about that's about to be in play you know to helpfully hopefully accelerate this. This energy transition.
19:45.52
chrissass
So if you say they're the beginning of their journey right? And there's a lot of money teed up to go into it. What are the incremental steps that that a utility is starting to think about.
19:57.63
Joe Catarella
Yeah I mean I would say you know for you know some of the like 1 of the projects I'm on right now. Um, they're really focusing on their internal workings right? Do they have the people the process and the technology ready right to start doing you know. Going into these things right? So historically if you look at it. Maybe they had 3 big power plants that they had to manage right? just on the on the grid now right? that could be 300 different facilities that they have to manage. Also you have you know the virtual power plants. Where hey how can I use you know the solar panels the battery storage. You know that my customers have how can I now leverage that in order to kind of keep the grid at the at the right megahertz right? So that is what they're all focusing on is trying to figure out a get their people process technology. In a good space. Um, but then they're also looking to see you know where should they invest right? Where are the opportunities who should they partner with um you know, kind of the outside the box thinking you know I had a conversation with um with a client you know he made the comment where you know.
21:12.12
Joe Catarella
We are about to Change. We don't have We don't have a choice and it's a fun journey to be On. There is no playbook. Um, but we're going to figure it out right? and so you know for me, you know from my perspective I mean that's just that's super exciting right? to be you know in those types of conversations and being helping to. To work right? with the shift that we're going to see.
21:37.86
chrissass
So How is the shift changed assets right? If you look at the old model right? We had big power plants or gas turbines or whatever. However, you were choosing to make your power right? If you're utility. Um. And those had long life cycles. The return on investment was based on performers over a long period of time right? and so my understanding with renewables is that performer changes dramatically in and how long the asset needs to pay itself back or whatever the financials are. So how is that working out is that the main reason for the tax credits to make sure that someone's willing to invest in that or like help me understand what this transition looks like from a commercial side.
22:21.29
Joe Catarella
Yeah I mean if you look at the tax credits. Um, you know there's kind of from a clean energy perspective. There's 2 levers that that someone can use. Um you can use the investment tax credit or you can tie it to the production tax credit. Um, if you go with the investment tax credit. Um, and if you hit back to what I was saying earlier. Um you know from the wage perspective the apprenticeship perspective you can get a 30% tax credit right? and so just for those maybe not. In the us what does that mean because in the us we have different types of we have so many crazy tax laws right? but a tax credit is so let's say it cost $100000000 to build the facility the 30% tax credit I now have $30000000 of tax credit. So I don't have to pay it right? So where that. Interesting because you mentioned like a utility like they don't have those large tax bills right? So the impact there is not very beneficial but let's go look at the banks right? The big large banks the big equity funds right? Who do have a big large tax bill you know, now, there's an avenue for them to either just purchase those tax. Credits from them right? or that's going to be why they invest in them. So you know through all that right? and then and then from a production perspective that production tax credits that is when it's tied to actual the actual generation of the plant.
23:47.45
Joe Catarella
Right? So you can get I think it's $26 per Megawatt tax credit that you'll get tied to the actual Megawatts that you generate? Um, So both of those come into play and another thing about the Ira is that allows these companies to accelerate the appreciation of the asset. Right? Which you mentioned you know. So if they can accelerate that depreciation faster than it gives them. You know the ability to open you know to build new facilities or retrofit existing facility facilities as you know these assets you know their lifespan is a lot small. You know. Lower um than your typical you know Coal plant.
24:29.30
chrissass
So what kind of infrastructure needs to be changed or be in place. So if we move to this distributed world. So let's assume today my assumption is we're starting mostly more on the commercial side for you know people having wind or solar and bringing it in. But as this becomes the reality across the board assuming that's what's taking place what needs to happen to the core infrastructure. So you know we're here in Texas right? Texas gets a bad rap because it's had ah a few bumps in the road. Um, what? what.
24:58.74
Joe Catarella
Um, yep.
25:05.13
chrissass
But fundamentally needs to change or if anything.
25:08.66
Joe Catarella
Um, oh um, I mean they there's needs to be significant investment in the new infrastructure I mean if you just look historically how these grids were built. Um, yeah, you can just from a simplistic perspective just look at a triangle right? and they put a power plant on each one of the points right. And that was all that was needed and you know they would build them with the capacity you know the capacity in order to keep the grid. You know at the right level. Um, well now you're having little facilities put in all throughout the grid right. And just because you're going to put a facility there doesn't necessarily and it's generating a hundred Megawatts doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be able to get onto the grid right? because it could be getting pushed back from the way that the current grid was set up and how it was designed so there's going to have to be a total redesigned. Um, you know in order to. You know here in west here in Texas right? We have all this great wind and solar in West Texas but there's constraints right? We can't get that across. You know so like you know so that's why you'll see you know in West Texas we'll have negative power prices because we're producing too much. But then if you look in I'm in Dallas right? you look here and. And Dallas will have you know one hundred and twenty dollars price because we can't get that power here. Um, so that's the next I think.
26:21.91
chrissass
So is that so in West Texas perhaps they're curtailing energy and then Dallas you need more is that what's happening. It's not in the right look like right place.
26:28.78
Joe Catarella
Yes, yes, that's correct. Yep and so and that's just you know, just based on how the grid is today and so there's going to be a significant investment needed to take place in order to kind of reimagine right? What that. What the new grid needs to look like.
26:50.28
chrissass
And is that taking place. So if you look at the grid right? and you look at kind of the us where power is kind of broken up into who controls what parts of that a lot of investment going into. Let's say wind solar parks and you know all kinds of things like that. Um. Who's doing the investment into the grid.
27:10.99
Joe Catarella
Um, so it just you know. So if you look at like ercot for example here in Texas right? I'm in Dallas so encore is the company that that manages the grid here in East Dallas um center point manages the grid down in the Houston area where you are right now right. So they're all you know, having to do it as well. As with the investors right? I think that's another thing that you're starting to see yeah, always having a conversation with a client who historically didn't play in the t and d world and they're considering building their own transmission lines right. In order to get it. Um, you know to the grid faster right? and more efficiently. So I think it's the legacy players. Um, who have historically been but then I also think you're seeing you know, ah, the new. The new players come in as well. Um, but there is not you know.
28:02.70
chrissass
Got.
28:06.57
Joe Catarella
Because of the way that the Us power grid is constructed right? as far as with all the different isos and the rtos that are out there. There isn't you know one? you know entity that is that is controlling it.
28:18.87
chrissass
Yeah, now thinking about what you said in your introduction we went I jumped right on utilities. But you mentioned you were in trading and I said Hey you know trading really with trading how does trading evolve with what's going On. And the Market. What's changing there, right? I mean you know the day ahead markets are we you know the intervals changing is that the only thing changing are we going to see less otc more Otc. You know what? What do you think is going to happen. There.
28:48.51
Joe Catarella
Yeah I mean so I would say if we kind of looked at this you know based on um the first introduction of renewables. Um, that really established the ftr cr the congestion market that we have in the Us. Um. So that's been kind of the you know like we see commodity players get into that space where we see where like ah, a utility or ipp you know they'll use that to cover their basis risk. Um, that's you know that's where we see kind of the banks and the and the true commodity players who aren't asset mass. Back trading and that's kind of where they're playing. Um as far as you know if you look at you know from a c and I perspective I kind of touched touch base on it. You know earlier like we're seeing more. Um, you know virtual what we'll call virtual ppas out there in the market. Um, you know different from your your traditional ppas in order to kind of and then we'll see you know the 24 by 7 products I think you know just the different products that are out there. Um, and then we'll just look it back to the organ right there they have you know that's a physical market. Right? So there's not an Iso There's not an rto. There's discussion right now they're about to stay ah, all of the contingents have the ability to operate in the kiso extended day ahead market right? So that's kind of a new trading entity for them. There is talk about ah an rto.
30:22.78
Joe Catarella
Up there right? We'll see what happens because then you got to get all. Yeah, everyone's got to play. Nice um, you know for those who aren't aware I would say the upper west us is still a very physical market and then the south southern portion of the us is ah is ah is a physical market as well. Everywhere else is has kind of fallen into ah an art rto or Iso. Um.
30:46.45
chrissass
And other areas of the country in the us at least where renewables aren't so prevalent where you know where it's not windy or it's not sunny or for whatever reason there's not enough land geography wise or whatever that you don't have the renewable sources where we need them. So if you're you know if you're looking at this plan holistically as opposed to hey I live in Texas and I only care about Texas but if you look at let's say the United States and where the population centers are how is that lining up.
31:15.92
Joe Catarella
Well I think you know one thing that that has opened up recently is offshore wind right? So you know they've had quite a few offshore lease. You know in the northeast right? to your point right? They don't have land like we do here in Texas where you just go put. You know, hundred Megawatt solar farms right? So I think they're trying to find you know different ways to still have that technology in place. Um, and I think that's one you know I would say on the East Coast the west coast um, and now in the gulf of Mexico that's a big push is to get off offshore wind. Um, which was kind of been um, you know, not supported in the past, but there's been a significant change. You know to start allowing that.
32:02.64
chrissass
So we talked about financial Incentives We've talked a little bit about like grid but we haven't talked about is there a technology change or is there any kind of innovation that that's changing I mean you know renewables aren't new. You know the focus is stronger and bigger and scale is bigger.
32:17.87
Joe Catarella
Um, right.
32:22.55
chrissass
But you know none of these technologies are particularly brand new that we're talking about and you're talking wind and solar right? The Pv Panels have been pretty much similar for quite some time and the wind turbines are pretty well known as Well. Um, So what innovation is this driving this or going along or what innovation have you seen recently? that's. And help accelerate this.
32:42.92
Joe Catarella
I mean I think you know obviously over time with technology. It does get better and better. Also the cost to implement goes down. Um you know back to the ira 1 thing we didn't talk about was the manufacturer credits as well. Right? So any? Um, you know so and it's ah it's a rolling scale. But if components of your wind farm or your wind turbine for. For example, were built into the us were built in the us a that manufacturer. Gets a tax credit per item that is produced and then also ah the entity that is purchasing that equipment then can add a dish we talked earlier. There was a 30% tax credit. Well if ah, ah, a certain number of that is purchased from the us it actually jumps up by ten percent right so now you're looking at 40% tax credit. So obviously I think with that right, there'll be an influx of new of manufacturing going on the us I think technology will advance. Um I think you know which I kind of mentioned earlier the big change though has been battery storage right? If you look at the technology from battery storage of. I mean the first time I you know interacted with battery storage was probably about six years ago I can remember going to the to the plant and looking at this this room of just servers right? and it was like hey here's our battery storage and I think it was.
34:15.25
Joe Catarella
It was like fifteen Megawatts it had a charge of like with 45 minutes right it was like you know now there's you know one ah hundred Thousand Megawatt Battery you know facilities being built that have 3 to four five hour you know cycle times right? So I think that's really been. Um, a big advancement from a technology perspective and then so now if you collate now if you have a wind farm and a solar farm and you put a nice battery right? Co-located. You have the option to you know you have free energy to charge your batteries so that you can you know leverage those overnight. Um and so I think you know just. The battery technology I think is really at least here in the us allowed. Um it to be more and I hate to always come back to dollars but more commercially viable right for investment.
35:08.52
chrissass
So You have the storage Component. You get the other elements there putting the pieces together. Um are there still hurdles that you're coming across as you're consulting and working with folks. What are some of the hurdles you mentioned a couple of times. Um. About apprentices Program. So is it is it there a lack of skilled people to build this at scale is what's with the apprentice program. Why? so much.
So we've covered a lot of the elements through our conversation I think we had a little snappy with an network for a second but coming back to it what I was asking before is you'd mentioned several times about having in.
00:01.75
Joe Catarella
You get.
00:19.15
chrissass
And um, funds or tax credits for that interns. But um, cut this question I Guess starting what were you saying the when you're training people. Um I'm having yeah let me start? Yeah, okay.
00:34.44
Joe Catarella
Apprenticeship. Yeah.
00:39.26
chrissass
So throughout the interview. Yeah have I've heard you mention a few times apprenticeships um is the lack of talent or not deep enough fence strength a hurdle I mean we talk about trillion-dollar investment so all of a sudden we're going to have this hockey stick growth if it goes according to some people's plan right. Um, if you believe that you don't have a choice because of the environment and other reasons that you have to do this very quickly. Um, and you have legislation saying twenty thirty Twenty fifty there's all kinds of deadlines. Um, which would the apprenticeship is it is it really a lack of resource or is it. Different skills. Are we rescaling the people.
01:16.90
Joe Catarella
Um I think it's probably it's um, it has to come down to I mean just for example, the stigma right? Historically we're not historically recently with the within you know, working in the energy industry right? I think nowadays you know, just me personally. I'll be interviewing someone and they'll ask me hey do you go and work with the super major and my answer is yes and they're like why can't work for a company who works with those types of clients and from my perspective you know I look at it is those companies. Yes, historically have been. Doing whatever they were focused on the dollar right now they're looking to change right? They're investing in change. Um, why don't we help them solve those issues right? Let's be part of the of solving the problems rather than just pushing them away because they're not going anywhere I mean just look around your hotel room I mean how many. Products in there are petroleum based etc. Um, so I think that's 1 thing and then also just I would say you know a lot of the age of the of the worker of the workforce right in these utilities in these ipp. It's getting up there right and they're all about to retire and. It's not the sexy Amazon or you know, ah Microsoft or Google gig right? So it's a way to try to get those people excited. You know you know that's kind of where the way it could be. It could be right.
02:38.33
chrissass
But it could be right I mean if we're talking virtual power plants and I mean most of what I see as a technologist is the future is technology in these if you're starting to do distributed Energy. You're doing demand Response. You're doing all kinds of elements. There's a whole lot of software and technology involved in that. And you get a whole lot of data with everyone even from your ev all the way through right? if you look at the ecosystem. So you know I don't picture a lot of the students that I'm working with wearing a hard hat unless they happen to be walking across you know production facility they're probably in an office somewhere in front of a computer screen doing some sort of work for the most part, a lot of these folks.
02:59.33
Joe Catarella
Um, right.
03:07.22
Joe Catarella
Um.
03:16.47
Joe Catarella
Um, agreed. Yeah.
03:17.37
chrissass
Is that not okay. So I don't see that negatives negative connotation. Um, and I've also seen you know I've talked to there's been a number of Bp projects that have been pretty interesting where they put money in I Think. Perception is that it's just a lipstick or it's just a facade that they're not really putting money in and really doing things. So what do you say to that because you said you work with them and you might as well work with them and I'd have to agree that you know if you don't want the economy to stop tomorrow.
03:35.91
Joe Catarella
Are you.
03:48.60
chrissass
Hydrocarbons are still here is how do we manage them down and get to ah a way that we can live with it and the planet can live with it I think is what you know you might consider I might consider.
03:56.40
Joe Catarella
Right? Yeah I mean just look at the investments that they've been making I mean you can look at you know some of the biggest supermas without naming right? They are invested investing significantly in renewables that're investing significantly in ev stations right? on all these things that are going to allow. Right? us to kind of move more to you know a green a green world. Um, one thing I didn't I haven't touched upon either which I think is pretty significant from an ira perspective is we talked about earlier. There's a 30% tax credit then you have that additional 10% tax credit. Um, adder if you are locally sourced. You know the materials and manufacturers. Well there's also another additional 10% whereas if you actually build these facilities in a location where it's been impacted by closures. So for example, if there was a. You know a coal you know coal mining town in West Virginia I use this an example because the center was key to this piece of it right? But if there was an old coal plant or a coal mine in West Virginia right that was the heart of the town right? and so that town is kind of you know on its you know dying a little bit right? There's ah, a significant. Um, upside to go and invest right and bring this new and technology to that town and then also the apprenticeship right to you're rescaling the workers right from that you know from that town to get them to focus on this new technology. Um, and I think that you know were what.
05:32.70
Joe Catarella
October Twenty six or you know the November elections are coming here in the Us There's always a concern you know if congress shifts right? whichever side right? There's a chance that you know this is just a legislation who's to say that it's not going to. You know the new control new vision. This just goes away. Ah, that piece that I just mentioned I think is key right? because there's a lot of benefits for you know those types of areas which I think will um I mean you never can say never right? But the chances of this getting repealed. Um you know are lessons significantly. Um, by adding you know that type of legislation to this.
06:13.88
chrissass
But it would seem that investment in enlarged players in the space have already started capitalizing on it. They were teed up. They knew the legislation was coming once it came out I think and yeah. Few generations ago a few presidents ago I think they were talking about chevel-ready projects but it seems like they were Shovelrey projects for lack of a better term keyed up to go whether they you know, be someone doing a hydrogen project whether you're doing a wind project. Whatever it at least from the folks I've been talking to.. It seems like you know the. Spitets open and people are running hard to it and investors are going that Way. So I think it's hard to put a genie back in the bottle doesn't mean you couldn't but I think it's hard to do from the Chief seats where I sit. That's why I see so to bring this all together. Um, you know how does this this all play I think we've.
06:53.45
Joe Catarella
Right.