This week Chris and Johan are joined by Alex Campbell, Head of Research & Policy of International Hydropower Association (IHA). The three discuss the importance of hydropower for the decarbonization of the global energy system and its potential as an alternative clean energy source. Listen in to find out more about how hydropower can reduce the world’s reliance on fossil fuels and how it supports the integration of intermittent solar and wind.
International Hydropower Organization's Homepage:
https://www.hydropower.org/
This week Chris and Johan are joined by Alex Campbell, Head of Research & Policy of International Hydropower Association (IHA). The three discuss the importance of hydropower for the decarbonization of the global energy system and its potential as an alternative clean energy source. Listen in to find out more about how hydropower can reduce the world’s reliance on fossil fuels and how it supports the integration of intermittent solar and wind.
International Hydropower Organization's Homepage:
https://www.hydropower.org/
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| Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
| 05:20.10 | chrissass | Welcome to insider's guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass and with me as usual is Johan Oberg. Johan, how's it going this week
| 05:21.65 | Johan | Um.
| 05:32.30 | Johan | Ah, doing good Chris doing good It's been ah, another great week from an energy point of view. Obviously we have a situation around the world which has some effects as well. But. Set that aside for the next forty five minutes at least and talk about something more interesting.
| 05:49.13 | chrissass | Well I was amused this morning. So as you may know I come from the dcr you used to live on the cheseaeake bay and one of the news articles. It caught my attention this morning not necessarily energy related but it had to do with a ship running aground in the Chesapeake Bay the same company that blocked the canal. Not so long ago so it was kind of interesting. You know you know seeing seeing the evergreen ship run aground in the chesspe bay I thought that was kind of amusing. So. It's a little lightened up by day. So apparently they're they're still running ships of ground but this one's not blocking navigation and and less impact in global supply chain.
| 06:25.18 | Johan | Ah, well we don't need anything more now in terms of that one I think we had enough of of challenges around.
| 06:25.55 | chrissass | So.
| 06:33.86 | chrissass | Yeah, we did today I'm talking us from London I'm I'm over here another commodity hub I know I usually am in Zurch for for the podcast I'm over here working with customers over here. Ah you said it was good week and energy. What did you mean.
| 06:46.78 | Johan | No, but I think in in general we've we've seen a lot of of I think initiatives in terms of the green initiatives and I think we will always come back to the situation that that is emerging in the Ukraine and and. And also the legislation and all the the political decisions potentially even forcing this renewable investments and and kind of the the geopolitical part of of being more energy independent. So I think that's kind of an interesting part of following maybe accelerating now due to unfortunate. Circumstances but from from a sustainability point of view I think it's really really interesting to see what is happening and and and I'm really encouraged to hear more about this today as well.
| 07:31.98 | chrissass | Yeah I'm interested in today's program I've just finished reading this book on energy and talked about some projections that some analyst had done and they'd include hydro in there and in in the projections. The the author questions some of the projections because you basically had a. Place all the turbines and in in all the the hydrop plants in order to get the kind of capacity i' thinking of but what what I believe is I think hydro is certainly a part of the solution living in Switzerland um I see hydra all the time. It's it's a major part of the country we live in but I'm looking forward to hearing from our guest point of view. You know. Where this plays in the sustainable solution and how this helps and and what more could be done to leverage it because I grew up as a product of the 80 s and you know when when I was growing up hydra was considered bad right? It killed fish it was you know I remember my yeah science. Prester is telling me that you you didn't want to build these big dam projects and things now I live in a country where it's it's just hydra all over the place and it seems to be sustainably doing. Okay, it's what's on so it's it's it's it's ah the interesting to hear where it is in 2022 going forward 2.
| 08:38.87 | Johan | I agree and I think obviously working for for a company that is a hydro company by default. You know my company and the alpi that I've been working for now we've been doing this for 100 years so I think it's really really interesting also to get the view of of an outsider. But from the company to to learn a little bit more about it. I think that's quite interesting but also fascinating to hear about the the investment where they're coming from who's investing in where is hydro for everyone. You know this is what I understand very geographically as well in terms of what you can and what you cannot do so. I think we have a lot to explore and unpack in the next 45 minutes ah let's do it.
| 09:16.60 | chrissass | Well let's dive in. Let's let's bring Alex Campbell onto the show. Alex welcome to the program. Well once again I have the advantage over our audiences.
| 09:22.89 | Alex Campbell | Thank you Very much pleasure to be here.
| 09:32.90 | chrissass | I Know who you are and what you do, but maybe you in your own words could introduce yourself the audience of who you are professionally and give a little background on yourself.
| 09:38.44 | Alex Campbell | Sure delighted to so my name's Alex Campbell I'm the head of research and policy at the international hydropower association. So that's association as the name suggests for the for the hydropower sector we like to think of ourselves as the voice of sustainable hydropower. We've got just over 100 members active in well over one hundred and twenty countries. So really trying to promote the the role of hydropower in the energy systems of the twenty first century which of course is increasingly changing and we will see that shift from the the baseload provision of hydropower for the you know. As it's done for last hundred years into something which in many markets will be much more a supportive role helping to integrate those other variable renewables I came to the iha in August Twenty Twenty so not quite 2 years and but previous to that I'd been in a. Ah, number of government posts in in the Uk government I helped to run the contracts for different auctions which are as I'm sure many of your listeners will know the auctions for renewable capacity in the Uk. So I I led on the the policy framework for that. So. Previous to that I did international nuclear policy worked on decisions like the hinckley point c decision spoke with russian counterparts chinese counterparts on various international nuclear matters before that smart meters. So again, you know a different angle in the the decarbonization story if if you like and previous to my energy experience I had about 10 years in regulation mainly in the tech sector but also a little bit of of media thrown in there as well. But yeah, just over ten years ago climate change obviously increasingly important. And it just struck me as ah, an area I wanted to move into and and and work in so fast forward and now now I'm helping to promote the case for sustainable hydropower and you've you've already touched on some of the the challenges but also the opportunities that we think the sector will have.
| 11:38.72 | chrissass | So it sounds like you've been in a number of different elements of the energy business. How how do they impact and how do they prepare you to be in the Hydro industry in Sustainable hydro.
| 11:49.67 | Alex Campbell | Yeah, so I I must admit when I when I started at hydropower I thought well I've I've done 3 years working in nuclear these you know these guys can't teach me anything about the difficulties of trying to bring Ngos and stakeholders. Um on board on on the journey but I actually found there. There are. Some similarities but some real differences I mean as as I'm sure you guys know nuclear power just the rape arouses some really you know hot hot topics and opinions. You know some people are just pathologically opposed to them. But the the story with hydropower is a bit more nuanced you touched earlier on on the impacts on fish and and certainly. In the past there's been some some bad projects we. We all know that but over the decades over a long period of time working with stakeholders. We've developed these sustainability tools now reflected in the hydropower sustainability standard to really make sure that projects are delivered with best practice in mind. But nonetheless you know there's there's no getting around the fact that if you're you're building infrastructure any type of infrastructure. It has impacts on the natural world and what I what I found was you know you whichever technology you're looking at whether it's onshore wind you have opponents whether it's nuclear power. You have opponents. And when I say opponents I don't mean irrational crazy people I mean rational sensible logical intelligent. Well-meaning people who who look at something and say you know we understand about climate change. We understand about the need to electrify you know, low-income parts of the world. But. You just not do it with this technology here and I think you know what I've learned from my experience is it's it's trying to get those conversations going and trying to explain that the big picture the the massive global challenge that we know we all face not just on climate change. But. As as the news currently shows energy security as well.
| 13:43.60 | Johan | Which is quite interesting of course as as a big picture and and and coming in with with your background to support this you know I think I think it's really really interesting. But at the end of the day. Yeah I think it's also. If we look at the organization you represent and the objective of of your 100 something members. What? what would you say is is kind of the core objective promoting and and and and kind of educating is 1 thing but is that really kind of the core objective of the organization and what would you say is your ah your main objective. Um, as part of an organization supporting these hundred something members.
| 14:22.30 | Alex Campbell | So I think is to shift shift the dial shift the needle if you like on getting sustainable hydropower built. We know that if you look at the iea or the irena projections. We know there needs to be a huge increase in the amount of low carbon electricity generation. For hydropower. That's not as significant as it is for for you know, wind and solar where you're talking about a 10 or 20 fold increase but nonetheless those organizations still say to have ah a fighting chance of hitting net zero. We probably need to double the thirteen hundred Gigawatts or so of hydropower that we got today by 2050.
| 14:53.12 | Johan | Um, it.
| 14:59.42 | Alex Campbell | So for for me and for us it's about trying to push those policy Frameworks get them into place so that they we can actually then develop that hydropower make sure that governments are supporting it make sure that the the markets are in place to to support the services that hydropower provides and and so on.
| 15:16.18 | Johan | But is that then we'll probably touch on this later on as well in terms of the investment parts but is that out of Curiosity does that also but them based versus what. Is that versus Fossil Fuel or is that the investments for Hydro ass a supplement or a complement to to wind and solar or is it actually taking literally investments from other renewable energy sources as as solar and and and adding them to to a hydro or how does that work.
| 15:44.23 | Alex Campbell | So I mean when when when you look at the projections when you look at the numbers. It's Clear. We need to massively dial back most obviously on coal but also on gas so to the extent that there is money spare money going around. You know. Come from there but that that needs to be invested across the piece in flexible low carbon Electricity. Grids hydropower is just one component. There. So I wouldn't see it taking it from any other form of low carbon electricity or indeed flexibility to the extent. It's taking money from anywhere then it then it should be naturally from the the Fossil fuels. But.
| 16:08.85 | Johan | Um, it.
| 16:18.82 | Alex Campbell | You know you you guys know this there needs to be a huge increase in all forms of low carbon Electricity. We can't hang around. We need to really put the foot on the pedal we need to do that for obviously solar and wind but also hydropower also for flexible Spark Grids. You know. Biofuels where they can be done sustainably and of course you know nuclear power still needs to to increase if we're if we're really to get to net 0.
| 16:42.62 | chrissass | So I Guess you're talking about the the increase and that leads a little bit to the technology right? So and I think on the precall we we covered this high level is you know is there enough. Um. Locations and is there enough capacity to to really get the hydropower. We needs to be or is the technology advanced that you can do more with the existing dams and infrastructure in place. Um, give us an idea of where where we're at in the lifecycle of hydro.
| 17:15.90 | Alex Campbell | Yeah, so simple. Answer is all of the above. But the the the longer longer winded answer is let's let's take the 6 existing fleeets so it it is getting old I think around half of the thirteen hundred Gigawatts out there today about six hundred Gigawatts Is 30 years or more old if you go down to forty years you're looking at about third four hundred Gigawatts so there is an aging fleet but that does present an opportunity for modernization for refurbishment and typically you know without even major equipment upgrades. You can eke out an extra 5 to 10 percent. Generation just from doing a decent modernization program obviously with a major refurb you you could potentially get more so there's there's potential with the existing fleet to upgrade it and that's more relevant for Europe for North America but also you know we're doing a big project at the moment with the african development bank. There's there's old infrastructure in Africa that can do with with modernisization. So it's it's not unique to the developed world by any means but in terms of the potential for for new generation and Greenfield sites. There is more than enough when when you look at the kind of peer-reviewed scientific literature. It suggests that to take the most extreme case perhaps only 10% of the african potential has been touched in places like Asia it's you know, 50% similarly with South America question marks over North America you know how much how much is realistically available. But when you factor in you know, large amounts of unta. Potential in in Canada then theoretically at least it's there obviously europe is particularly well-de developed but nonetheless there is still greenfield potential in in Norway in turkey if you include turkey and Europe so there there is there is definitely that that potential there and that's before we even think about things like off-river. Pump storage hydropower and I don't know how much your listeners know about pump storage hydropower. But it's ah, a quite clever way of storing energy. You have 2 reservoirs when electricity is cheap. You pump water up the hill and when it's expensive. You let it back out again. It's a great way of of integrating. Wind and solar for example and and storing energy and it's by far and away the the most dominant form of grid scale storage at at the moment across the world. So when you when you look at those types of solutions. The potential is absolutely vast because you don't need a running river to develop them obviously then there are. Costs involved and and so on. But as I say the potential is absolutely vast.
| 19:52.65 | chrissass | Right? So so what I just heard you say is the fleet is aging. You can get into their 5% or 10 percent out of perhaps what's already infrastructure in place by modernizing it I think is what I heard you say? um I also heard you go on to say that let's say.
| 20:03.83 | Alex Campbell | Um, nothing.
| 20:09.93 | chrissass | Certain regions. There's still plenty of untapped resource. That's ideal for this and then you you kind of closed with the the grid storage which has been around for a long time that concept of of using Grid Storage. So So why is there an association encouraging Hydro So If it's it's if it's. The panacea that you just described. Why isn't it everywhere.
| 20:29.83 | Alex Campbell | Great question. Yep and that's that's my that's that's my day job really trying to unpick that one I also forgot I forgot to talk about unpowered water infrastructure. Maybe we can come back to that afterwards. So so I mean we look at it.
| 20:40.40 | chrissass | Yeah, please.
| 20:45.79 | Alex Campbell | Electricity systems across the world in particular in liberalized markets have have been changing over the decades. It used to be those vertically integrated utilities who could see the value of an asset like hydropower across across all their operations. They could see the um. Things like inertia that might be provided black start capability or all those those types of sophisticated grid services as well as the the pure energy as as markets have liberalized and you know each of the providers of those has been separated out. It's It's become harder to make the business case because of the way the markets are set up and in in the case of pump storage hydropower. It's it's been a particular problem in that when they were originally built. You know I guess the peak time was maybe the 60 s and seventy s and even into the 80 s you had nuclear plant running all through the night because it wasn't efficient to turn it off so you could it was quite straightforward arbitrage question. You know you knew electricity was going to be cheap at night and you knew it was going to be expensive during the day and to a lesser extent. You had that with coal as well. It was more efficient just to keep keep the coal systems running through the night so was a nice natural fit. Even you know, even if it wasn't a vertically integrated utility. There was kind of a quite obvious business case with increasing penetration of of wind in particular I mean solar is obviously much more predictable than than wind but with wind as we know we can get weeks and weeks of strong winds and then you can. Have weeks and weeks with very you know low wind and just predicting and forecasting those markets becomes much more challenging and if you're an investor going to or so if you're a developer going to an investor saying we know there's definitely a need here. You know we've we've we've done the maths but you know it's quite hard to predict exactly when. When you're going to get your return I can understand from the investor's perspective that I want I can I can go and get a contract for difference for for wind turbines you know the government of that country is going to guarantee me ah a price for 15 years you you can't do that. So for us, it's about trying to find mechanisms which. Um, a subsidy per se aren't money you know transfer from from governments or or taxpayers but are more about just trying to ensure long-term revenueibility visibility and certainty with you know with risks being apportioned. Appropriately you know the construction risk should sit with the. The developers and and so on but we're just we're just seeing that it's it's not really caught up the the the kind of need for those flexible provision. Low-carbon forms of electricity just just hasn't caught up yet.
| 23:19.72 | chrissass | Got it. Thank you you.
| 23:21.69 | Johan | So If we look at if I just touch back on this and the terms on the investments and you you mentioned the unpredictability on wind versus maybe a little bit more stable in terms of of Hydro but. Isn't it Also where capex or a larger investment for a longer period of time which makes it a little bit more uncertain in terms of Hydro versus wind or am I am I.
| 23:43.62 | Alex Campbell | No no. Ah I think it's that's that's a really fair point when you you compare um, hydrate now of course the the kind of the amount of construction you need to do before you can start generating with hydropower is is necessarily a high proportion of the. The ultimate capex like I guess then it would be with wind. It's probably closer to to nuclear in that respect you you could get a turbine running but you still you know before you've put all the turbines in but you still need to build if you're doing reservoir storage of the dam. You know you need to put all those civil works in place. With I mean obviously with solar. It's a lot more straightforward and even even with wind you can in theory get get some of your turbines up and start getting that that return on investment sooner. So it's it's definitely a a feature of hydropower. That's you know the the. Point at which you can start getting your return is going to be necessarily later on in the project and that you know can understand that from an investor's perspective that that can be troubling which is which is why if we want those flexible sources of low carbon generation on on grids in the future. Governments and policymakers need to think about these and and and think about well how do we? How do we make that work so that we're not caught out in 1015 years time relying either on on gas blackouts which would obviously be a total disaster or or just betting the house on some really expensive. As yet. Um undeveloped, um, long long duration. You know, low low carbon but long duration form of energy storage.
| 25:19.19 | Johan | So when when you look at that the investors if we if we continue on that track if we look then on is there a difference between would you say between the investors then on you know, renewable is the the the new kind of thing right? We see so a lot of money moving into Renewables. We've had a number of investors on the show. We have a lot of innovators on the show with with acquired quite a lot of money to do this but would you say that there's a difference then in terms of who invests in what kind of technology. So So when when we look at wind This might be a short term or shorter. Term in terms of return on the investments on the energy generated where maybe Hydro then is more of an infrastructure investment for for a period long time. Would you say there's a difference in terms of who actually puts up the money and investing in this or is.
| 26:11.97 | Alex Campbell | It's It's hard to say so because because we look across the piece globally and we're not just looking at private sector investment. We're also looking at some of the multilateral financial institutions like the world bank like the like the regional infrastructure banks and they obviously have a role to play especially in in developing countries. But.
| 26:15.91 | Johan | Um, is.
| 26:29.88 | Alex Campbell | In respect to private sector investment I would say sorry it's not very helpful answer but similar but different. You know there are There are some some players who are active in in both Copenhagen Infrastructure partners. For example, you you might see them them playing in in in both areas.
| 26:34.98 | Johan | Um.
| 26:47.28 | Alex Campbell | There will be some who you know those investors who want that that Clicker return you know might be more prepared to go into solar and wind We. We are obviously keen to encourage the pension funds and and the so on to to treat hydropower as as ah, you know an investible. Asset or or class so alongside other forms of safe and inverted Commas Infrastructure investment and there are you know when we think about things like sustainability. That's obviously an increasing concern for many investors now especially institutional investors and so you have things like the climate. Bonds Initiative who have criteria for for green bonds in in hydropower so to provide that kind of reassurance that the yeah, they're not going to be caught out if they put their money in something with ah with a load of stakeholder blowback and of course negative Real-w World consequences.
| 27:41.28 | chrissass | So has the market changed. So you you talked about kind of the history of where where dams and projects were built and my memory I kind of have you talked about some of these kind of global funding organizations and you know to me it was always kind of you know. Ah, political tool where you could go into a third world country. You build a big damn project. It was feel good. It kind of helped sway to to a political will has that kind of changed in today's hydro world or is it still is it still something that where it's being used to extend your political. Reach right? because that that's the way I look at the old projects. You know a big damn project seemed to me is is kind of more about politics than the than the actual project is the way it looked at least from the cheap seeds.
| 28:23.95 | Alex Campbell | so yeah I'm so I'm absolutely sure some of them have being characterized in that way and there might well be an an element of of truth to that I wouldn't say that's u unique to hydropower obviously large infrastructure anywhere can be a ah vanity project for. For politicians. That's that's certainly not unique to hydropower I think you know there is more from our discussions with the likes of you know the the african development bank to to name 1 or world bank and and and so on. You know there is there is much more of a focus now on that real-w world benefit understanding the impacts understanding where hydropower fits into the both the electricity ecosystem if I can use that phrase but also it's it's wider. Social benefits and understanding the impacts. But also the water service benefits so you know flood control. You know drought resilience climate change resilience and adaptation services and so on. So I think it's probably not unique to to hydropower I suspect there's been an evolution. Around the the thinking about large-scale infrastructure especially in in developing countries across the piece as I say not not unique to hydropower. But you know it's worth worth adding and I'm I'm sure many of your conversations. Note this as well. Place which is building the most at the moment is no great surprise china you know china is absolutely the world leader in hydropower at the moment and when we look at the the numbers that as I said before irena and iea of forecasting needs to happen to to help get to net 0 if we took china out the picture a a not particularly great picture would look really really quite grim. It would be you know outside of china it's it's not been developed anywhere near the pace. It needs to be and there are a number of reasons for that and I touched on some of those earlier.
| 30:21.53 | chrissass | So you also mentioned in your intro that Hydra should be considered not so much for base load but also for kind of grid scale storage. So so what kind of changes would be supporting that what what's driving that change and why should that be considered differently.
| 30:37.80 | Alex Campbell | So yeah I mean just just to be clear on that it it can obviously be baseload and there there are many countries around the world. You know Costa Ricas the you know the paras or so on where Norway you know where where hydja power plays that that really important role. But as we see. Wind and solar plummeting and price which is fantastic news for the for the climate we all know well those of us who who spend a lot bit of time thinking about electricity and energy that you need to have you know both backup but also integration services and there's a whole host of really technical stuff. Happens that we we don't see which is really difficult to explain to policymakers who are you know, thinking about a million and one different things and so for for us getting getting those market arrangements right? So that they reward the flexibility and and you know put the proper value. That kind of flexibility is is really essential and that's where you know when when we talk about things like storage and understanding. You know what What's what's in it for the for the operator there are they are they being paid just to release of as much electricity. So I generate as much electricity as as they can. Or actually are we thinking about some so of capacity type market market type arrangement or even a more sophisticated one where you're where you're literally paying them not to generate because you know that that resources is available when you have the wind drought when it's particularly you know, gloomy and overcast. It's it's. You know these are these are difficult difficult things as I say to get get into energy ministers' heads. You know some of them are very good at others as I say understandably, they're complicated subjects and you're you're asking them to in effect. You know, pay pay people for what seems like nothing in in some cases but it's incredibly important when you do need it.
| 32:29.77 | chrissass | Is the message being well received. It's so's it's complicated. It's so the solution's complicated no matter what what form of energy we're talking about I find but so you I think you said you came from a regulatory background as well and in some of your history. So how is it being received.
| 32:46.80 | Alex Campbell | So we've seen some progress for example in the the uk put out a call for evidence last year on long duration energy storage I think they had recognized that there there is ah there's a gap here that you know the the but uk government does. Ah I say that so used to work there. Do. Fantastic modeling on on the energy system of the future and clearly they'd identified. You know there there are going to be be these gaps and so they've really started to sit down and think about and put out some some proposals for possible mechanisms. Somewhat akin to the cap and floor arrangement that's in place for for interconnectors between Britain and and continental europe for for example, but in other places you know you you get the sense that people are only now beginning to understand the the urgent need to decarbonize you know to. Get coal off the system. You know so they then they're seeing the price of wind and solar and yet you know you're you're trying to say to them and and by the way in 10 years time 20 years time you're going to have this problem as well. I understand that's that's not going to be their their priority and we we keep. Bang in the drum one of our board members Malcolm Turnbull who's the the former prime minister of Australia he talks about the crisis within the crisis you know because he saw this when he was prime minister of Australia you know the the risk of blackouts and so heavily promoted the the snowy mountain hydro snowy mountain 2 pump storage hydro facility whilst he was in office because he recognized it and and and could see it and you know I think the the worry is I guess that policymakers will make this tomorrow's problem. And then as we all know suddenly tomorrow's problem becomes today's problem and and everybody's scrambling around desperately trying to find a solution.
| 34:37.59 | chrissass | So So I get the long-term nature now I can't help thinking once again, this goes back to that whole thinking about dams and things and being American thinking about watching videos of the Hoover Dam being built and I grew up about a mile from the Niagara power Plant. So very familiar with Hydro My my whole existence. Um, but comes to mind as the amount of concrete involved in these so you're talking about carbon change and things like that. So did modern Dams use less concrete because I think Concrete has a very high carbon output when you use Carbon. So How does that offset you you build a big dam project Today. You may be creating green energy. But you're also creating carbon are you not.
| 35:12.90 | Alex Campbell | Yeah, absolutely so again, any any infrastructure has embedded carbon and ah hydropower is quite unusual in that the the kind of biggest concern with hydropower in particular with hydropower that uses reservoirs is when when you flood an area. You cause the organic material that was previously not not underwater to to die um and break down and release climate gases so methane and and carbon dioxide and the the kind of bigger concern rather than the. Embedded the concrete that's embedded in in the walls is is actually the emissions from from that. Um, is it anaerobic I think it's anaerobic breakdown. Don't don't quote me on that though and we and others have have looked into that and there's been a ah lot of studies of. Friends at unesco funder program at the University Of Quebec and in Montreal the unf triple c has has looked at the embedded emissions across different technologies and I'll get to the point hydropower is is actually very favorable. At a median point compared to other technologies. So the the numbers are around I think it's twelve grams per Kilowatt hour for for nuclear wind is is in about the same place these these are over a life cycle. So over the lifespan of technologies hydropowers a bit higher around the mid 20 s solar is about 40 for example and then you know gases what 300 plus something like that coal 80800 plus. So yes, there is there is absolutely emissions embedded in the concrete like I say it's actually probably more important to think about the reservoirs but on a median basis over the whole. Lifespan of of the infrastructure. It's actually pretty low and and well within the the limits that we we need to put in place to to hit net zero.
| 37:11.63 | Johan | How does that come with them with with investors if we connect the investors back then to to the sustainability value because I think sustainability is driving the investments for many many of of the new investors around this and or even the old ones. And if I if I used to take an analogy quite a few years ago I I bought a diesel car. It was actually subsidized due to the fact that it was an environmentally friendly car and and obviously some new research came out and it's not so. Um, sustainable at the end of the day this is a car that will okay, big investment for me quite a few years ago but if I am a institutional investors we're talking millions and millions for the next thirty years and suddenly something changed and and new research comes out and says that Hydra is not. Specifically ah sustainable then how how do you How do you work with the investors around around this because what we're kind of interesting here is is that it is a long term commitment or investment that kind of shifts a little bit of the momentum around it.
| 38:22.20 | Alex Campbell | Absolutely and there's there's a number of ways to reassure investors in in that regard. So I think I mentioned earlier we got the for example, the climate bonds initiative and they have criteria for you know for for green bonds. As it were and they they reference tools that can be used with hydropower and that for example I think there's a fifty gram limit for for projects for the you know for a project to be sustainable in in that respect in terms of emissions. The Eu Taxonomy has similar sorts of limits and. And we've got the hydropower sustainability standard which isn't actually the iha standard. It's it's an independent council which iha works closely with of course. But as do ngos as does the world bank and so on to really set a using a. You know a suite of tools have been developed over many years some really cutting edge in in the world of sustainability criteria for assessment. So an investor can can come in and if if they want to can request an assessment using those tools or or ultimately against the standard. And so reassure themselves that they're not going to get bitten here that that this is now a a widely recognized mechanism for demonstrating compliance with those really important esg aspects that of course, many people are concerned about.
| 39:44.50 | chrissass | so ah so I get Johann's question I guess I'm still kind of thinking that the way you describe this is hydro parro or is just part of a solution. That's an ecosystem. You talked about the grid and other green energy is part of this right? So are you. Part of your day job helping create the rest of the infrastructure to support because you know just having pirate power generated somewhere and going into a poor grid design or something like that's probably not all that helpful. You talked about the the legislation or perhaps some of the regulation to go along with it so that you have a favorable market condition to support this. So what What's the kind of the whole ecosystem. You're working with I guess is my question. So so I get you get the dams and you you got the studies you talk about some of these different agencies. You talk about the funding you got the investment angle that you on's going down but and I think you talked about regulation. What's the whole picture look like maybe you could color it that for us.
| 40:38.24 | Alex Campbell | Yes I mean grid connections and interconnectivity is obviously critically important. It's important for hydropower is important for for all the technologies and we do where we can work with some of those organizations which are trying to. Promote green grids as it were around the world to make sure that there is clever planning you know at that kind of big scale infrastructure level to to work out well, where should we put the grid reinforcement in place and you know we we would turn around and say. For example in in some some regimes the the grid operator isn't allowed to operate generating quip which which means they can't get pump storage hydropower in place. Even if that's actually the most cost-effective way of them managing their grids but because of its ability to you know quickly react to. Supply and demand. We also think about clever uses of of existing infrastructure and floating solar pv hybrids with hydropower are one really interesting example of that where you can maximize the use of a reservoir especially important in countries with high population densities and. You know Southeast Asia we're we're we're seeing this increasingly with obviously great solar iradiance as well. But taking advantage of the grid connection that the hydropower facility already has to lower the cost of the the floating solar facility but also reduce some of the wear and tear on the the hydropower. Equipment so that kind of clever use of different types of equipment together which sometimes requires the breaking down of barriers because you might have a ah legacy state owned. You know, regime in in lao operating the the hydrobar facility who. Just see why why do I want to get involved with with solar and we've seen some really interesting cases where developers have come in where you know international aid agencies have come in and and talked them through and shown how it's ah in that classic phrase a win-win for everybody to to do exactly that we're also think you know. It's not always you know there. There are some fantastic hydropower resources which are a long way from grid connections and there's something like um hydrogen comes in. You know we see in some more remote parts of the world hydropower used for say aluminium smelting which isn't necessarily connected to the grid but it's um. You know it's it's kind of that self-contained lower cost model and you you might see in the future hydrogen being produced with hydropower in remote areas because it's cheaper to ship the gas or eat more ammonia even than it is to to ship electricity and and hydropower's got actually quite a long history with.
| 43:27.89 | Alex Campbell | Making hydrogen it was I think back in the 1920 s there were facilities in Norway for example, mainly for use then in in fertilizers and they kind of wound down through the twentieth century but clearly the the potential is there.
| 43:44.37 | Johan | Um, Hydrogen is obviously fantastic sustainable. We got the wide life in there. That's great if we look at Hydrogen maybe just quickly on it Where do you see the I like the way you you explained this on on the localized part that.
| 43:44.63 | chrissass | Someone brought a seagull to someone brought a seagull to this scarf.
| 43:47.89 | Alex Campbell | Sorry about that is it? yeah.
| 44:03.40 | Johan | Where do you see other kind of short term um applications for 4 4 then the green hydrogen.
| 44:09.51 | Alex Campbell | So I mean hydrogen is is fascinating. It's it's been seen as that great green hope and you know when when you look at it certainly from a technological perspective that that seems to be the case and there's some really interesting discussions going on you know in countries like Britain at the moment about How do you decrease decarbonize domestic heating because you know at the moment you've got do you go down the gas gas route. There's existing infrastructure in place in Britain pipelines and so on that would need to be modified and and boilers again which would need to be modified. Would you go for pure electrification and and. Put heat pumps in place and so on but those require much more significant investments in insulation and you know much more significant changes to people's houses and if there's anything about the the battle against climate change. It's that making people change behavior is is a lot harder than just putting. You know some wind turbines up off offshore. Even that creates some some opposition but you know completely restructuring people's houses is is difficult. So I mean I I really want to see green hydrogen succeed or low carbonbon hydrogen. There might be a role for for blue or pink hydrogen as as well. But's you know we we we do need to see hydrogen being rolled out. Think first and foremost I'm sure you guys will have an opinion on this as well. It will go to those hard to abate sectors so high temperature heat long distance vehicles that may be into that lower grade heat depending on on the costs like I say with with things like domestic heating. But it could of course ultimately be used for for generating electricity and that's you know that that'll be a challenge for the hydropower sector you know I've I've talked a lot about the important role of of hydropower and in providing that that backup and that resilience you could do that with hydrogen I think. That's got to be the last use of hydrogen surely we want to use hydrogen for air travel if. It's feasible for you know the high temperature heat that I talked about beforehand but they you know they certainly could be a role for for hydropower. It's it's got that. Um. In the right place the highcap capacity factors to justify keeping the electroliers on all the time as I say you you could you know have a really nice arrangement with with you know the localized users very close to the to the manufacture of of the hydrogen. But this is playing out and um, um. I'm sure you guys have to say of of lots of thoughts on that it's it's it's going to play out in a really interesting way over the next five ten years I'm sure
| 46:44.44 | Johan | No for sure and I think we've had a few people on the show when that I think it's always always fascinating because I think the the interaction also between other industries if we talk talk about transport. For example I think for the first time energy.
| 46:44.83 | chrissass | Um, so.
| 46:58.18 | Johan | Industry is kind of in the backseat of actually making that technology shift. It actually going to come from someone else and the energy needs to adapt to it but but I'm always curious to hear a little bit about the hydrogen. But I'm going to drop it now because I think we're also running a little bit on topics. So ah, maybe move back a little bit.
| 47:00.70 | Alex Campbell | This one.
| 47:15.81 | Johan | To to hydrogen a Hydro Sorry you're right? ah.
| 47:16.85 | chrissass | To Hydrogen or to Hydro as like oh okay I can go wherever.
| 47:21.84 | Alex Campbell | We've all done that we like if every every time I talk to someone about hydropower and Hydrogen someone gets the the two mixed up. It's it's obligatory.
| 47:30.43 | Johan | I.
| 47:31.63 | chrissass | So I Guess with Hydrogen right? It's it's It's a density question right? You talked about aviation or maybe long haul trucking or some other things like that and how does the storage and and the the use of water to you know for pump storage and things like that is it How does it compete. Compete I mean it's probably it's very dense I would imagine for energy.
| 47:53.70 | Alex Campbell | Ah, absolutely so water is is dense and you can even use higher density liquids to drive turbines as as well and I know there are some interesting companies and and Technologies play there I Guess the the kind of. Argument versus not the argument but the the kind of discussion with with hydrogen is you can use hydrogen for so many things in so many different ways and I'm sure. Ah, you know once once the mechanisms are right? It will start being produced at scale and I think for the hydropower sector you know we'll we'll keep using water. To generate electricity. But we're not not going to use it directly to power Aircraft Of course that would be a fantastic thing. Although I think Hydrogen to be fair is quite some way from doing that just just yet as well. But it's it's again, it's a more focused role for for hydropower than Hydrogen. You know that that. Go across the piece and and revolutionize revolutionize the whole energy sector I think.
| 48:53.39 | chrissass | So where does um, hydropower work. Well and where does it not work well like where where would you recommend it and where would you not like so where are the pros and cons for hydra.
| 49:03.86 | Alex Campbell | So places I wouldn't recommend it. Probably not in the desert you know for of of his reasons. No I mean the the kind of the you know it all depends. What? what? you're looking for and what types of impacts you're concerned about what the rest of your energy mix is. But yeah. In simple engineering terms. You're you're looking for height and mass water. You know the the higher the the head so the distance between the top and the and where the where the water's coming out driving the turbine the the better. That's why we have lots of hydropower facilities up in mountains. it's it's you know incredibly energy efficient and and powerful there and obviously if you've got big rivers. That's that's beneficial as well. I think the interesting places to you know to to start thinking about where it where it work well in the future in terms of greenfield sites are. I don't know if I don't actually know if they count as greenfield sites so unpowered water infrastructure according to iold the international commission on large dams. There's something like 50000 large dams around the world less than 20% of those fewer than 20% are hydropower facilities. There's a huge amount of infrastructure out there. That's that's already if you like there's a sunk environmental cost. It's it's caused the the negative impact already. Why don't we try and utilize some of that infrastructure I know that's something that the ngos even some of our you know most most critical friends.
| 50:35.26 | chrissass | I.
| 50:36.12 | Alex Campbell | Ah, keen on because they they see that as being a ah benefit and obviously places like Europe are absolutely full of obstacles in in natural waterways. But even you know across Africa across Asia there are still thousands and thousands of these. Obstacles I say that that makes it sound negative. They're there for irrigation purposes. They're for navigation for you know, flood control drought control and and these sorts of things and they won't all be ripe for for utilizing with hydropower but some of them will be and it's it's a tremendous potential there. But it's the. It's the usual kind of public policy barriers and issues that are stopping them being developed. You know who owns it who's got responsibility for that infrastructure. Do they have anything to do with the people who are responsible for energy. Are they different again from the people responsible for water. Do those departments speak to each other are some of them privatite. You know. All these sorts of things which make a simple or relatively simple engineering challenge. really really difficult you know at at play when we think about issues like that.
| 51:39.54 | chrissass | And what's your your organization's role in a project like that are you involved in these projects or are you just an advocate to get people consider it.
| 51:47.86 | Alex Campbell | So We don't specifically advocate for any individual projects I mean we will do our best to to showcase Best best practice of of course. But we are very interested in working with partners to try and map out and understand. Where that potential is and we're in Dialogue actually at the moment with with a number of stakeholders both from the energy sector but also environmentalists and and climate change advocates to really try and get that really sophisticated understanding yeah down to the River level of where there is the potential. It would be for us to develop it others to understand you know what the concerns are that they they would wish to see brought into consideration there others to you know, put forward the the potential for interconnections that we talked about earlier or so on. But yeah, it's It's very much a. When we're talking about issues like that a partnership with other organizations.
| 52:46.56 | Johan | So I think ah as a kind of follow-up. We we discussed a lot about the the politics around it. We talked about the financial around this and obviously I think we all agree on this one that that the hydro is something that will be a fundamental part in this energy transition. You also mentioned a little bit about the growth in terms of China being leading the way which in many ways not just for for hydro but specifically we went through a little bit on on kind of pumped run of river and and kind of storage in terms of this one but kind of just little bit of a. For our listeners and and and including myself. Do. Do you see anything specific now some new technologies something specific that you think this will actually have an impact or is it more improving the processes that we have and and expanding regionally or number wise on what we have.
| 53:40.88 | Alex Campbell | So just I mean if we just I won't bore you with too many statistics but we we talked earlier we need maybe thirteen hundred Gigawatts by by 2050 alongside a load of other technologies. We've we've assessed the pipeline. And there's about five hundred five hundred and fifty Gigawatts in there at the moment and less fewer than two hundred Gigawatts of that is actually under construction. You know there. There is a huge gap between what we think is needed and what is actually being built. So. That's that's kind of a slightly alarming thing for for me and and the sector because it's it's not just important for hydropower. You know that's that's a huge amount of low carbon electricity generation if it doesn't happen. Are we going to really be able to to build other technologies at that kind of huge scale that's needed. So for me, it's about you know, working with the the partners who perhaps are concerned about the the impacts of hydropower and just trying to get everybody to to look at that big picture. You know if we have 20 times as much solar and 10 times as much wind there are going to be electricity cables across the globe. You know it's going to be absolutely smothered for for understandable and good reasons we need to you know, keep looking at this as as a holistic problem or you know look at it holistically to to try and. Get get to an accommodation which means that people accept development even and though it's not ideal to to push back against climate change. Yeah I don't know if that's quite answered your question but I thought you know it's just important to have that reality check on on where we are with with the numbers.
| 55:16.66 | Johan | Um, no.
| 55:20.75 | chrissass | So I think we've gone pretty much all over the place in this Conversation. So What I'm I'm hearing is that there's a gap in the projects that exist in in the need. You You want to ask some funding questions of who's funding these and you know are there concerns with some of the modeling and the long term nature. The kind of the nature of the beast and it sounded like you you have to work with different governments and also global organizations to kind of help make these things come to Fruition. Um. Are so are you bullish about us being successful I mean you obviously changed Roles. You've you've dedicated yourself to working in this energy sector. Um, what your what your crystal ball telling you about the Future. How How are we going to do on this with with the reality check.
| 56:04.39 | Alex Campbell | So I'm I'm a natural optimist I really am but it's it's borderline on on this I think we really need to see governments focusing on long-term system-wide planning. And understanding what what's coming down um, understanding the gap they're going to have coming down the track and then hydropower will have a role I'm I'm sure of that it won't It won't be the answer to everything of course, but it will. It will have a role if they don't do that. Then then you know it's then I am worried both for the sector but also more more generally again, you know about tackling climate change because I think it will be next to impossible to get to net zero unless you have really sophisticated forms of long-duration energy storage and. Yeah I do try and be positive I do try and be optimistic but you know there are just some big gaps at the moment and I really would ask Yeah people who are concerned about the infrastructure impacts of of Hydropower. You know you need to look at the long-term climate change impacts. That's so important if you've got a better solution. Please please come forward with it Now. You know it's we we the world needs it right now you know if it's not Hydropower. You've got to find something else super quickly.
| 57:21.56 | chrissass | Well cool Yohan any final questions or thoughts.
| 57:23.76 | Johan | No I think we leave it on that note I thought that was a really brilliant finishing in terms of it and I think we all agree on this One. We're running out of time in in many ways and and I think this shift even though we see very good science and we bring up. Quite a few of them on this show from technology etc. But as you mentioned many times we're talking about Scale. This is not a small thing Change. So ah, a few small technologies here and there will not do it So I Thought that was a really good ending and I want to thank you for for joining.
| 57:54.20 | Alex Campbell | Thank you very much for having me pleasure.
| 57:54.27 | chrissass | Thank you Alex. It's been a pleasure having you on the show and for our audience and we've hope you've enjoyed this conversation finding more about hydro and some of the projects and some of the needs. It's been informative to me if you've enjoyed the podcast please share it with your friends. Don't forget to subscribe and we look forward to speaking to you again next week ah bye