This week Chris and Johan host a very exciting young company. Together with his team Gianluca Ambrosetti - CEO and founder of Synhelion - has managed to produce renewable synthetic fuels with the power of the sun. These fuels are a promising opportunitiy for the decarbonisation of the airline industry. They are about to launch their first industrial facility and may soon scale to be a large sustainable fuel supplier. Listen in to find out where these fuels are demanded beyond aviation and what recommendations Gianluca has for young scientist and engineers making their first steps in the industry.
Synhelion's Homepage
https://synhelion.com/
This week Chris and Johan host a very exciting young company. Together with his team Gianluca Ambrosetti - CEO and founder of Synhelion - has managed to produce renewable synthetic fuels with the power of the sun. These fuels are a promising opportunitiy for the decarbonisation of the airline industry. They are about to launch their first industrial facility and may soon scale to be a large sustainable fuel supplier. Listen in to find out where these fuels are demanded beyond aviation and what recommendations Gianluca has for young scientist and engineers making their first steps in the industry.
Synhelion's Homepage
https://synhelion.com/
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| Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
| 05:36.26 | chrissass | welcome to insider's guide to energy I'm your host Chris Sass and with me as always Johan Oberg ,Johan how's going today?
| 05:50.22 | Johan | Hi Chris good to be on another episode and another great week how you been.
| 05:57.83 | chrissass | I've been fantastic and I've been really looking forward to this episode being here in Zurich every now and then we get to find ah ah a nugget right in our backyard and a cool company to talk to and this is one of those things you know if you look luka our producer it came from eth. And and he said hey I've got this company. You need to be looking at he pointed us in the direction and boy am I excited about today.
| 06:18.42 | Johan | Now I agree I agree and we you know we've been. We've been worldwide picking our experts and picking our guest and finding cool topics and and once in and in in a while. Ah, we find the as you said in our backyard and and literally down the road from where we sit today. So I'm really looking forward to it but not only because they're local because I think what they're working on for me that is not the engineer. It seems simple. But still so revolutionary and this is what my head is still spinning around. Why have not people done it before what are the challenges I'm already buzzing with a lot of questions.
| 06:56.58 | chrissass | Well I think we just drive dive right into this episode since we're both passionate about it. We know we're gonna have questions. We know we're goingnna up against time constraints. So let's not you know, Dilly Daly any longer. Let's introduce John Luca to the program jeka welcome to insider's guide energy.
| 07:10.82 | Gianluca | Thank you very much. Thank you very much I'm very happy to be here and you know I'm very privileged that you you know consider us like and not getting in the backyard.
| 07:20.40 | chrissass | Yeah, it's It's actually really exciting. It's It's pretty cool things you're doing um but I have an advantage over our audience as I usually say about this time is I I have a little bit of knowledge of who you are and what you do, but our audience has no clue yet. So maybe it makes sense for you to start by introducing yourself and and who you work for yeah.
| 07:35.90 | Gianluca | Sure so I'm I'm ja luca broseti I'm originally a physicist but after my ph d I started directly to work in the field of solar energy. So I mean this was you know some years ago and um. Ah, the company I was working with ah was working for I um, you know was head of research. So I had the chance you know to go to a lot toth Zurich not far away from where I'm living and you know to follow all the ph d students there that were working for the company and you know. Most of them were with the lab of professor aldersteinfel and so you know I sitting there and looking at the things we were mainly optics you know so geometric a or non non-imaging optics things is yeah this where they linked the works that we we're doing there and um. But nearby they were working on synthetic fuels produce thermochemically or this height temperature or glowing reactors and so that looks interesting and know so several years sitting there brought me um, in 2016 and together with other people there also from the lab to the idea to try to bridge this decay long research into the market and this is a bit you know this a bit the inception of sinian so I moved from myself to yeah how cinnaian came to be in early 2000.
| 09:11.21 | chrissass | All right? So so just to recap what I heard is you were physicists that worked in optics that saw these guys doing synthetic fuel and you said hey this is pretty cool and now you're at a synthetic fuel company based here in Zurich Switzerland is that the short version of what I just heard.
| 09:11.74 | Gianluca | See all.
| 09:28.34 | Gianluca | Um, yes, it's a good.
| 09:31.90 | chrissass | Awesome! All right? So so our audience also may you know want a little education so tell us a little bit about the company. Maybe just a short glimpse of what you're doing. So apparently you're doing something at optics and sun and you're making synthetic fuel. That's what it sounded like so maybe share about that.
| 09:47.47 | Gianluca | So basically um, the mission is really to to produce renewable synthetic fuels. So fuels that are fully compatible with existing infrastructure and that they are. You know they can be used by existing engines. You know as say the news also the existing distribution infrastructure which is has been built over the decades and but are renewable. So when you use them. Basically they put out the same amount of c o two that is being ah used and picked up by the production. So how does that work. How do we do this? and basically I mean what we do is at the simplest form is we reverse combustion when you when you do burn a fuel you. You basically take a hydrocarbon a fuel you combine it with oxygen you have a flame the flame releases heat you derive a process and then from as a chemical output you have cotwo and water vapor what we do is reverse it take water vapor. CO 2 put in a lot of energy and then come back to the fuels and somewhere the oxygen so this is the center part and this is where I come now to um to the way we do it. You know I mean we need to put in a lot of energy and the energy we put in with. Heliion is solar heat. So with the mirror with the optics. We concentrate the solar radiation in a point where we can generate very high temperatures and to some divide with through some devices we deliver these heat to a process disease reversing. Combustion to generate our viewers.
| 11:41.16 | Johan | So So so using solar I looked at a few of the or the images of the solar park at the big tower where where you reverse the the the sun too does this work on on all solars or is this dedicated specifically for for producing a. Fuel or is this could you could you put your solutions on any solar farm or are they dedicated specifically for for for the these solutions.
| 12:10.25 | Gianluca | That's a very good question and I mean we what we use is basically a solar tower technology. It means that what is on the top of the tower where the concentrated solar radiation comes is our own development. But the tower and the Heio starts. Ah I mean Standard Hellio stats and Standard tower technology can be used So The fact that we are using we are leveraging on many components that are already being used for.. Let's say for instance in for the production of power with The. Say the more known and conventional concentrated sort of power plans.
| 12:50.76 | chrissass | Um I saw that you had it. Oh good beyond.
| 12:50.78 | Johan | But that means that but that just to clarify and and there might be another stupid question but does that mean that that your technology with the solar tower could could you basically put a solar tower anywhere on any solar plant without reducing. The the capacity the normal capacity of a solar plant but just adding extra value to ah, a solar plan or is it dedicated specifically for for this.
| 13:18.13 | Gianluca | Um, no I mean you will need to have a dedicated area you like the solar radiation comes on the surface. You know that you will We have like I mean in our case, you have mirrors you don't be penal. You have mirrors that concentrate solar radiation.
| 13:30.56 | Johan | All right? okay.
| 13:37.21 | Gianluca | And um, and but in any case, whatever you will put on a surface I mean this will be dedicated to these use. I mean you cannot have like a co-use because the surface is already maximally exploited for the purpose. So if I have a pv field to produce electricity or even ah like an existing Csp field to. Concentrated on top of the tower and produce electricity I mean you know the amount of catch up captured solar radiation. Um, the the incoming ra power is used for that and you cannot use it double so I will I will need to of course use it to find the dedicated. So our face a dedicatedated land peace were to do my thing. Our thing.
| 14:15.68 | chrissass | Um, but not and.
| 14:16.38 | Johan | So that that was that was the smart answer to the stupid question. Thanks ah.
| 14:20.30 | Gianluca | Um, it's not at all a stupid question. You know like this.
| 14:25.65 | chrissass | So I saw in your videos on on the website several different solar options I saw at 1 point looked like 2019 you had ah a big disc type thing on the top of et h of of one of the buildings there that generated a fair amount of heat and you you made small quantities. Then it looked like the company had moved on to maybe a medium size production. Um I don't know if that was in Spain or if that was I think it was in Spain if I recall correctly and it was pretty cool because now now you're starting to get something pretty big and and you were able to produce I think aviation fuel at that point is if I recall from from that.
| 14:51.79 | Gianluca | Yes.
| 15:01.30 | Gianluca | Use.
| 15:03.69 | chrissass | Then if I'm not mistaken, you were building an industrial scale size basically plant or or using one that existed perhaps to to proof the concept out. Will you pretend then when you build drone to produce your own fuel is that is that kind of the history where the company's gone so far. And my captioning is right.
| 15:22.59 | Gianluca | This is actually a very good description of our timeline. You know how it was so far. So basically right now we are implementing ah a full industrial scale system on a tower that however is not our ah our own tower is the tower of the german aerospace center. But we are installing on top. All the key components on the tower that we are renting and ironically and enough even the mirrors of the field that are done but what is now seen in Germany so we have there many components on that plant but is not yet our own plant. This will be the next step that we are going to do still in Germany to have like a really a to z plant owned and build and to build and owned if you want to do the sequence and operated by similian.
| 16:12.78 | chrissass | So I guess what I wonder I don't think of wearing like my bathing suit in Germany all the time because it's not always sunny. There. So if if if I'm Zurich airport and I've got this contractor. It looks like you guys have already sold your fuel to Zurich airport to to fly. And you know and I need to go on this business trip next week and it's been cloudy for some period of time in Germany what happens.
| 16:35.68 | Gianluca | This is again a very very good point and it's because this facility that we're building in Germany is not a commercial facility I mean it's a fully industrial facility but it will not produce commercially it will. Will produce on good days and and it's important to say which is not so intuitive is that a nice sunny day in Germany is not different than a nice sunny day in the desert in the sense that the intensity of the sun in a clear dark blue sky day is. Fairly constant all over the planet. But the difference is of course in a good location in a less good location is the number of days so you would not put a plant a commercial plant in Germany. However, what you do is you put a and plant. You are wanting neno to. First of its kind there because you have around you the whole infrastructure of supporting companies. You have like 1 of the best environments of the world. You know to to build and operate such a plant. But. You know to answer your questions I mean yeah, you would you would risk to to have your plane to your plane to have your plane there waiting a longer time for the few. But if you would rely on that. So. This is also why our commercial plants are not foreseen in Germany and we foresee the first ones most likely and the first ones in Spain where you have yeah better solar irradiation.
| 18:11.62 | chrissass | All right? Well I'll go visit you in Spain Germany's is not as exciting on a cloudy day. But Spain I think would be a fun fun place to be in the sun. So so you're gonna put the plants down in Spain that makes sense. Um. It may make sense to talk a little bit more about the technology because I conceptually understood from your description that you kind of reverse combustion cool um, so we talked about having this tower. We talked about these mirrors and it's kind of cool if you watch the videos I see the mirrors focus and you know concentrate.
| 18:31.95 | Gianluca | Um, we.
| 18:43.23 | chrissass | The the energy into that single point I think many of us that watch this podcast or listen this podcast have seen that um what other elements do we need to to make this happen.
| 18:52.46 | Gianluca | Um, I mean I said you know, um, the somehow the feeler rouge the connecting element between let's say all the declination of our technologies go through high temperature heat. Generated with concentrated solar so like a very important element is what happens on top of the tower and especially how you convert the concentrated solar solar radiation into heat and for this we have a device which is called a solar receiver there you will heat up. What we call the gain in jargon so that energy people like to have fancy jarrgon what we call a heat transfer fluid which is simply a gas carrying around the heat. But um, but yeah I mean the important thing is these devices very central to heat efficiently this energy this heat carrier. That we will then drive our process then we come to the next step. Ah, which is the reactor where I do let's say perform my reactions and um, again, you know to put this a bit to to coming down for like the highest level description of the reversal of combustion. Put it a bit more technically and let's say there is a whole family of reactions that have what we in jarrgon call that are what we jar would call indotereramic. It means that they require a lot of heat to be operated and this is you know this is the step of. Combustion reversal you know you need to put in a lot of energy and these you do in chemistry with the endotteramic reactions and you put in heat this heat that I have captured in the receiver and so basically this is like very like pretty much in a nushell how the process is ah working. Is however, a very important turf element and I may anticipate the question is that that you may ask is the is the one. Okay, the sun shines during good day night. But what happens during the nighttime. And for this I need something to breach this and how we do breach this. We bridge this with a thermal energy storage which is like a battery but for heat and here again. This is the beauty of heat heat storage is much less expensive than electricity storage. So I can store my heat and produce twenty four seven with with something with like let's say a battery that is much much less expensive than an electricity battery. This is to describe a bit like the core components that we use you know that make a bit the magic you know like the interplay.
| 21:36.64 | Gianluca | These components make it the magic of what is happening on top of the tower.
| 21:41.28 | Johan | So So if we expand a little bit on on the technology. Ah you need to produce a lot if if I get this, you know if if there's going to be airline fuel or or get fuel. It requires volumes how big sizewise. Is this needed because you would need a lot of Mirrors. You would need a lot of heat is there is there a minimum or is that because it requires a bit of land mass to build this.
| 22:08.43 | Gianluca | several square kilometers several tens I mean and if you want to really cover like the fuel. The the global fuel demand this is gonna be thousands of square kilometers. This is really a very important. Um. This is very like an important consequence of wanting to transition to renewable fuels and I think it's an important message to give is that you really do need this scale. You know I mean we have a technology that is somehow more efficient and therefore we will require. Less land than other technologies. But it's not that we require 1 tent. We may require 30% less to say you're number and the day what we do need with our or competing technology is really really ah very large surfaces. To really be able to produce the quantities of fewor that that can know that are required to fully substitute the the fossil counterparts that you use today.
| 23:14.84 | chrissass | So My experience having been in in it and being a technologist is doing anything at scale gets hard. It's It's always easy to give a demonstration. It's It's a little bit harder to do it in small Scale. So I put in the chat window when you were talking you talked about the size One of the things that just comes to mind is. Just keeping that many mirrors clean. How do you keep this. It looked kind of precision at least in the video I watched this didn't look like just a mirror there I mean there there were actuators controlling the mirror to make that they lined up they look focused. Um I'm assuming they're also very Clean. So So how how does this operationally.
| 23:44.84 | Gianluca | Um, you know.
| 23:53.40 | chrissass | Take place how how do you manage something like that and scale.
| 23:55.29 | Gianluca | I mean this has been solved for existing solar tower planes. You know those those have like they have easily ah 1 square kilometter of mirror or one square kilometter of mirror mis like the land surface of the plant is easily to three Square kilometers the towers are.
| 24:02.42 | chrissass | 5
| 24:13.46 | Gianluca | 20250 meters high and so you know this has been solved this means that you need to clean them. You need to clean them fairly and regularly otherwise you have a soilating effect which degrades the efficiency. The good thing is that you have ah. Quite a lot of time to do this without corrupting the operations because you can do this during nighttime and but you need to clean them. There are you know companies that developed automatic ah cleaning systems I mean another alternative that you made that is of course ah often appreciated. Locally when you use local workforce to do this because people get a job to to clean that you also need to be careful in the water usage. Of course when youing the desk of water is a rareos resource so there are also schemes to recover this. But yeah I mean to make a long story short. It is something that has been. Done and carried out and solved by large existing installations.
| 25:07.95 | chrissass | Yeah, understood. Yeah, like I said it is just one of those things now you talked about water um to in the process. Are you using external water is this kind of this moisture in the air that that comes in with the heat to generate the fuel.
| 25:12.55 | Gianluca | Is a good point. Still.
| 25:22.63 | Gianluca | I mean it depends basically on how you source the input I mean you will need water as a chemical input to the process. So this water you need to source if you take the C O 2 from director capture In that case you will have water coming along. If you use biomass as a carbon input or as as a precur of to your fuel. Ah you will have also water coming along if you use um, natural gas or biogass. Ah you will need to have it externally which means that you will need to source it. And either you have it available from a water network or a River or a lake or you will need to to decelinate water and bring this in that this is like a part that that you know that you need to take into account when you develop a site.
| 26:16.91 | Johan | So So if we look at economics and around this we talked about the science of it something that kind of triggers me a little bit in terms of probably not a challenge today. But for sure it will be moving forward because. A lot of the new renewable be that wind solar or or something else will require big land Massses is there. Ah, do you see? There's a challenge here if if you are a landowner. Ah,, let's say you're a farmer or someone else and and you have a dedicated spot of land that you want to you want to dedicate to renewable energy. Is there a fight for for the land. And what? what then will be the biggest ah roi of of purely solar panels or or something like that you do.
| 27:02.64 | Gianluca | I mean as these places normally tend as our technologies tend to go to places does our de deserttic and there are many deserts and desert are normally not very sought after ah there is plenty of space there is plenty of space available this does not mean that there will never be any competition. Ah for a land I can imagine that down the road when but you know these things will scale to the tents to the thousands of Square kilometers there will be locations flows to let's say centers and perhaps networks power networks or for what it matters water networks or so that we may have like a big advantage but we do in our case really try to develop technologies that are independent as much as we can. From these dependencies especially from the electricity grid because we do believe that um the transition to renewables is nowadays so much geared towards electricity renewable electricity plays such a central role. That it will be hard. They will be soon and this is not something that I mean this is of of course now common knowledge I mean there would be a shortage simply also because we're facing out. Let's say the best kind of power plant the baseload power plant called but power plants nuclear power plants and. Therefore we do not. We do not want we we believe that this one of really our cornerstones so try to develop technology that do not need to rely on an electricity gri ah providing a renewable power. So for this, we are a bit more independent in location. Choice and yeah I mean there. Ah there is an enormous amount of amazing places where we can do this I really like yeah.
| 29:00.70 | Johan | So so 1 thing then if if we look at you you can put this anywhere. Let's say you you put it in the in the desert, there's plenty of space. There's plenty of sun. Not no problems in terms of this one. But if we look at renewables in terms of Safts. So sustainable aviation fuel renewable in general. You're also by doing that by default putting yourself quite far away from the demand of the actual fuel which means that you have a sustainable challenge here in terms of getting it from where you produce it to where it's used or am I am am I missing the point here.
| 29:37.30 | Gianluca | No I mean this is actually a very very good point because here you come to the core in the butte to the core beauty of fuels fuels have I mean what fuels are unsubstituteable in or how very hard to substitute in airplanes. Because of their gravi matric and Volmettric energy density the same ah energy density this so this high energy density makes them easy to transport and if you think this is what we are doing I mean we don't transport I mean natural gas you know. Ah, challenging. It can be hydrogen. We have heard power even I mean if you want to like you know, get like pb electricity from North Africa you need high volgeage Dc or that but fuel. You know we transport no problem fuel across the whole world and this is because of this energy density that makes the transportation impact. Ah economically but also environmentally marginal and this is the beauty of fuel so you can really position yourself away from your user and transport it to the user. Minimally parked.
| 30:51.57 | chrissass | I's thinking maybe we could change gears a little bit and talk a little bit about the company. We started by saying you're here in Zurich you you mentioned your personal bio that you you kind of work through at the eth. How how does a company start from et research and become a commercial entity.
| 31:08.10 | Gianluca | I mean um to be fair like the original eti spinoff was the company that my co-founder and Cosi Yophi fourler started I was already working for this other company back at the time when I was working with Elamsa was already in let's say working in. Let's say in the business side but at the end it works always in a certain sense. In a similar way or I mean at the end you have an idea you have a vision and you need to find some early packers because this is this is the most important thing you need to find people that say nice. You know like you sketch a vision or old mapage business plan or not even a business plan. You. You need to find people that at the end are putting some money on the table and back in our days we had like let's say an extra challenge. Our extra challenge is that we had like people that say nice idea guys. We're gonna finance this. But. You need to find an industrial partner and this was our big challenge so we actually threw judge Ma Sani 1 of 1 of the key persons in the foundation in the constitution of sinalian and our strategic advisor. To him. We got to yeah I and he and I decided when they heard what was you know this technology and how it was possible after you know, long calculations and modeling and everything decided to step into the project in 2016 and we started with a collaboration agreement. So we say that what it really takes what is it really to cost was this collaboration agreement with theni is also what basically gave the security to investors that we are not simply telling some story or that it was not too academic or because I guess that you know this is a challenge when you want to spin off a company from. Place like eti h is as many people will ask you nice I mean you know this is beautiful research. We know it's great. This e th is one of the best universities of the world but is this going to become a commercial product has this this potential and and even if you show this is. Are you able to bridge this is are your economics and your estimates started and enough when you have a I saying that they believe it. You know it's fairly easier if you be.
| 33:28.00 | chrissass | Cool. So so where is the company today I I think you know we talked about the different size implementations. You said that was good roadmap where the company is so where are you in the commercial lifecycle of your companies. You've got more than proof of concept. It seems um.
| 33:36.83 | Gianluca | Easy.
| 33:44.55 | Gianluca | I mean we are really now putting together I mean and this is this is and a literal statement and instead we we're really completing the first plant where everything is integrated together on the tower. So this is really going to be like the First. Ah um, industrial scale. Implementation of our technology. So this is really let's say I would say like perhaps the technically most important step ah and which we're gonna conclude this summer followed by the second very relevant step of having really integrated everything. And having done a planned a to z so let's say technology wise we come to the the big step is this summer from the company operation standpoint. I do see this with the completion of the plant in Germany because then it means is capable of taking a piece of flatland and putting on coordinating stakeholders and everything putting up a plane. This means that by 23 we'll be in the position to operate commercially which is what we are already foreseen for the planes. That are in a better location for production than Germany and as I mentioned before the spanish project but I'm we're really loud now come bring the the the 2 elements to be like I mean we're really hitting now that the the major corner so on the first one is on.
| 35:12.13 | Johan | Um, so so for the next step and just obviously there are business secrets and and and confidential things. But if I just look a little bit in terms of. For example, we we work a lot now with ppas for for example, wind parks, etc.
| 35:28.15 | Gianluca | Man.
| 35:30.35 | Johan | Ah, if you're looking at investments for another park. How does that next investment is it business driven so you have an airline you have something else coming to you that we want this and then together you build it or is it more of the an american analogy here in terms of the Kevin Costner film film you know if we build it they will come kind of a. Ah, prospect. How does that financing work because obviously every plant will have an additional investment.
| 35:56.60 | Gianluca | I mean building up the demand side is very important then we have partners in that space and we are working on this and this is for sure. Ah something very important but nobody needs to know we cannot fall on the delusion that. Plan financing or other devices will allow us to finance these first plants. So these first plants are financed through equity and possibly 2 grains because the technology needs to be bankable and this is the so the first step is to have like a few of these per length. With an output that is you know you need a few years of output and then perhaps it's in the situation where you can go to the next level. But before that it's I mean equity will play a center on. And of course you need to build up the domain side but I mean like you know when you put inequity you can always see it a bit into from from several perspectives now. You can see those from the perspective of this plain as as you say you know they will come I mean this is that you should that use that at same time you ah there is something in there that. You can capitalize in the value of the company. Yeah, because of course this is also whole experience and so and something that you can then use to deploy it in the successive plants.
| 37:19.42 | chrissass | You mentioned earlier in the conversation that um, you're a net neutral technology. You basically drop into existing engines and and the like is there an impact from. As these plants scale up from the amount of heat that we absorb so is there going to be a new problem down the road whereas today. Maybe some of that energy. We'd be reflected off into space if we start absorbing massive amounts of heat does that change things is that an environmental problem or is it already absorbed and I just don't understand the. Implications that it's it's not bouncing off into space.
| 37:54.54 | Gianluca | It's also a very interesting point and I mean the factor you are right? I mean this you have I mean it's the same thing with ah, let's say with ah would say with photovoltyic parts and everything I mean if you start to have large areas that instead of having the Albedo. Clearer Albedo Ade that would reflect radiation back at least part of the radiation back into the sky because you know so I mean what you see as as clear it and is not clear in the full. So Let's say or bright is not bright in the full spectrum of of the solar spectrum. But. Technical thing but let's say it's so as you put something that is more absorbing. It will absorb more and I mean if it would be very efficient. It would convert everything into electricity and you would not have this sort of heat highlanding or local heating well with less efficient Technologies. You may have this effect. Ah. It's a complex thing. It's also a debated subject. Ah what we know is that on the scale that we are targeting we are still away from this I mean if you let's say Target you know the surfaces for let's say yeah, let's a good part of the Jet Fuel domain that you are still. Away from these very very large areas but it's it's a point that that should be considered should also be considered a bit like Beyond this macroscopic pure effect but also locally you know and like you may have like a local effect on the climate if you start to look on a larger area. Ah. Differentiate the way you know that the heat is absorbed or ah stored by the ground and the surroundings like you put the lake in a place and you take it away. The local climate will change significantly.
| 39:35.23 | chrissass | But so I guess what I think I heard your answer saying is interesting, scientific question but this the results that you have it doesn't seem for the Jet Fuel demand to actually cause an impact at your scale is that what I heard you say at least theoretically.
| 39:50.90 | Gianluca | Yes, I would say that I mean I Just think that you know you need to reach a scale and where this may has an impact that that you know in a certain sense say when I reach this scale I will think about it. Yeah.
| 40:05.23 | chrissass | Yeah, no I Just just just curious right? I mean I I Just if if we reflect energy off and start absorbing more energy I Just wonder if we change one problem for another or if it's really net neutral and and I just don't know I'm not I'm not a scientist to understand that I just was curious.
| 40:19.26 | Gianluca | You know as I said I think it's It's an ah, it's an important point. But I mean with the surfaces we are talking the effect is negligible or let's say second order with respect to other places like reforestation and Other. Ah. And other things that would cover larger area but I would not they say I would not as all these things you know those are complex things and I tend to respect all these kind of challenges and never brush them away. But I for what we know for all the surfaces that we are talking about.
| 40:56.87 | chrissass | So you have technology Now you've got some intellectual property that you developed I think you were saying the key tends to be at the top of the towers. The way you were describing what's going So you still have scientists like yourself that are involved in this project. So so where does this go How does this evolve become more efficient or grow. What.
| 40:56.53 | Gianluca | This is a second door that affect.
| 41:15.66 | chrissass | What are the next steps so assuming commercial success end of summer what happens now.
| 41:20.64 | Gianluca | I mean there's several things that you need to do you know? I mean you still need to scale the technology I mean you need to scale it business-wise you need to scale. Also the components and you know like having ah you know there are several ways how you can do you of course can create a model and replicate it. But you also need to scale. The. The model itself you will you have components that we will always that won't be modular and that you will need to improve and of course there are also the next generation. You know we bring 1 technology one first technology to the Mark but we have a pipeline of. Knowledges that we do believe that in the next year will then once we have debbugged and also let's say we have like the risked let's say that the first version we can go to the bit more ambitious one but also with more reward so there is still a lot to do. And you know as it goes with the growth of of the companies. Also that you lent to do less science and to do more and more management which is sometimes nice but of course sometimes you do miss you do miss really like doing more research. So yeah.
| 42:35.11 | Johan | Which which obviously brings it into the next level where from from the science to the technology to the business which which is also an interesting part. So so coming back to that a little bit. We. We talked a lot about airline fuel and and and looking at the volumes around this. I guess it's you have quite quite a few years to go on this exactly but are there other areas that you're looking into or already working with or I'm just curious because we we tend to at least me focus here on the airlines. There are there other other areas that you are now looking into already.
| 42:54.99 | Gianluca | Um, 0 to something you? um.
| 43:12.59 | Gianluca | I Mean with the airlines we have of course a partnership with Swiss and the rutanza group. Of course this is with with them. We are working We have several working groups and several contact points. This is a very rewarding collaboration.
| 43:13.12 | Johan | Deployed.
| 43:32.20 | Gianluca | But we have even um collaborations beyond abbviation we have like for instance, the yaug group invested in inignio amma group is is one of the main importers of Switzerland and part of the forkswagen group. So we have we are also looking at road transportation. We have also we are also considering maritime application and last but not least there are also declinations that go beyond fuel will and this is because we have this high temperature per heat. We can drive these very energy demanding reactions that are necessary to produce fuel but we can also drive other industrial processes that demand a lot of heat that are very energy demanding. As for instance, cement and this is where we have already ah like. And longer time partnership with the one of the world leaders in cement production cmx and also invested in sinationian and with them we are developing ways of produce solar cement with the he if you not.
| 44:40.13 | chrissass | How how does the economics work. So the science is awesome. It's it's super exciting. You got meat geeking it out because I can't help but watch your cool videos and and talk about all the neat stuff we're doing but with most renewables in my experience is it's an economic equation right? the the current supply costs a certain amount. Yes, there's mandate to get rid of and get co 2 out, but the adoption rate tends to reflect the cost to production or is it cheaper or equivalent or slightly more expensive than perhaps you know getting jet fuel another way how does all this work out.
| 45:15.37 | Gianluca | I mean we do target to have costs that are comparable to the today's fossil fuel costs I mean we have different technologies that have different degrees of renewable fraction. We have a technologies that. Produce fuels that have a reduction c o two emission and reduction potential that um are is is around 40% that could produce on a par production costs on a part of the today's market price for ah, jet fuel which is around I don't know ¢50 fifty Frank Cents per liter not put in a ballbark finger and with the um and with as we increase the renewable fraction. You know to go to fully renewable fuel as the price increase to come. Slightly below the 2 today's reference which is around of the 2 2 today's advanced biofuels have prices around two francs per liter. Ah, and we have tech technologiess that can achieve that ah projectively at lower cost. Ah. But still at higher cost than than than let's say that what the that today's fossil fuel cost is I think that there is I mean some I know that there are some other companies that claim prices that are on a par with. Days fuelers fossil fueler demand but I mean with the 2 today's prices we see this as yeah, very challenging even analyzing competition competing technologies so this is a bit the space where you move in. But it's not going to be 10 times I mean there are also technologies now have prices that are 10 20 times higher. And these we do believe is simply a nogo. We do believe it's no-go because society cannot afford you know like to have such a hike in para mean we see what happens just because the energy price increase you know like and these increases those are. Very very steep increases. Those would be not accepted and I guess they do so I mean this would be very challenging. You know I mean would be very challenging to accept by society so we do even as a mission target costs start comparable to today's prices
| 47:40.80 | Johan | And so so looking at this we we have on the show quite a lot of times moving in. We. We have the technology we have the market but we have a third leg in regards to on this show which is also very much of regulatory and and politics around this and if I look at. This and and there's a big debate on on airline travel in general and how can we reduce that they talked about electric flights and that there's a number of different things but are there any incentives here from from either the european union or or from the airline collaboration of moving from from from. Traditional yet fuel into more of a yeah sap for sustainable energy fuel is there any because if the price level is this. It's still is still a better way to go for the airline because this's the biggest cost they have.
| 48:30.26 | Gianluca | I mean this is again a very good point and there are several schemes I mean there are rules in their renewable energy direct ah directives. There are quotas that are being either. They are already implemented. Or they will be implemented about like introducing a fraction of sustainable aviation fuel in your consumption. Not only for the users. There's going to be also for the importers they have like they have obligations. So this is a first support as will be. 1 first system. The other one is of course to support the technological deployment. This is something that at least in Switzerland we have the opportunity to at least mention to the government with whom we are talking. And this is of course another way of like me like direct I mean financing it can be also like it does not need to be a fo perdu It can also be like like you know like crans like I mean like I would say like ah credits or like system that can. Support you and last but not least, it's also at the end the the transition to be made by I mean by the customer and some of them actually want to have the the emission credits so this is already a market where there are people that want the companies that want. Because of their ah asg compliance ah demand that they they they will they ask to have credits you know to fly on sa so that they can put in their books but it's also the end something for the. The end customer I mean we are willing to sometimes to spend more you know to have a bio product to have something. It will probably become the time where it will be our own choice to to spend something more ah to have like. The actual fuel perhaps tanked into the plane or something I mean it needs to be something that is a bit different than an abstract way and as it is today but I think that there is a big space for improvement there I mean we know from let's say the the consumer market that it is possible that the consumer shoulders extra costs if. Um, she or he believes this is actually bringing like an added value.
| 50:58.42 | chrissass | Um I like the fact that there's going to be an esg component to flying because I'm on the commercial side of a business and I have to take planes to finish my career Out. So I'm happy to see that come along the way and um, the company I work for will also be happy to see that so that we can keep our sustainability goals that. That to me is an exciting time interest a little bit about life at your company. So How many employees do you have so far. Um, and what's it like working there because it it looks kind of cool.
| 51:24.86 | Gianluca | Yeah, so I mean cool is very Cool. He's especially cool, not in Covid times where we are not in home office and so what we can all stay together is I mean is is as good as it gets. You know you have like. Have like an amazing team and I'm not doing you know like this because everybody says our team is amazing. No The team is really really amazing. It's it's.
| 51:50.69 | chrissass | What what makes the team Amazing What what's special about the team where you're at.
| 51:54.59 | Gianluca | I mean there are so many things I mean first is that everybody's very very competent then everybody's very dedicated and then you know we really managed to to form. Ah, you know a culture It's very interesting. You know like I believe that the company culture is something so strong that once you have it in a company you can change people but this dominates and you know when you start the business at the beginning. It's known. It's you it's another one a to people but then it grows and then it becomes this this holistic assembl of people. And I think what we have is really special. There is really a special chemistry and everybody's committed and and the people you feel the mission and it's yes so it's we are really I mean it's it's really a holistic system where we are the sum we are more than the sum of the single parts and know there is really a collective. But of course like the the competencies of everybody from the technology to marketing and communication to everything you know to finance we have like ah an amazing team. Really I mean and I give me mean it every time I'm so grateful that and I sometimes think how lucky I mean it's it's. Strange you think where? um, so easily can go wrong and it didn't and you know we really have like I mean recently merged you know like we integrated the german company sino german also with them and he is working fantastically and this is. So now coming to the number we are around 22 we are going. We are growing to be around 25 by mid of the year and yeah so it's still um, quite a small company. But.
| 53:35.56 | chrissass | Still still a young company with with growth in front of you. Hopefully it sounds it sounds pretty exciting to me. Um, as we're getting towards time I think I have you know one last question if if I were a 20 something scientists looking to go in to renewables and all. What's the path. You'd recommend so you've done it. You've you've gone there and you've taken your career and and gone and developed some renewables What do you recommend to someone just starting the career today which which they do.
| 54:04.59 | Gianluca | I mean I would say something that I should not say but I mean I would say that study physics simply because it's the most beautiful thing that you can ever study and then you can go anywhere but you know once once you study physics is yeah I mean you go to the depth of things and. Then it's then a pleasure you know to try to to bring these very theoretical things into the reality but this perhaps not the most user comment I can make ah and on the the other side I think that more than what you study. But is important is try to do something I mean and I'm meaning this especially in Switzerland because I know in America it's different people have an entrepreneurial spirit in Silicon Valley people do like to build companies here. Ah. You know we have like a very solid market for a job market in in Zurich you can go work in many institutions and we'll give you a good salary. A good security. You will. You know you have an easy life a beautiful life and and yeah, but this is a pity because. And entrepreneurship and starting something is it's you know it's you cannot explain what it gives you I mean there isn't there are no words is's it's like an amazing experience and it's so rewarding and this is also what you can make really a difference. I mean in a company in an existing established company. This is challenging. It's not impossible. You can raise you to become the Ceo of the company and then perhaps try to steer it. But when you build your own things this is and on on other scale and what you learn the the bright of things that you learn I mean simply you know is 1 of the most. Really a rewarding thing and also one of them with the highest potential because studying is good doing a ph d doing a research is very good but still where you make a difference is when you do a company and you bring it to the market if you want to like I mean because at the ah the end. The energy transition is made of. You know I mean the energy needs to be produced and transformed and extracted and these these needs you know these need to be done. It's.
| 56:14.93 | chrissass | so so I hear the passion I'm excited that you shared that as a co-founder or founder of a company here in Zurich I I totally agree with that. Um, so I guess now that you've done that and you do that. So what's your vision 5 years from now 10 years from now and I look back. What have you done? What contribution have you made.
| 56:34.75 | Gianluca | I don't know I cannot judge my contributions I will let hold the judge but us Mike what my contribution was I mean I hope that sinian will really be a player you know like ah I remember the times when we started with this. Yeah, and I already on board and we were going out and people were saying what are you doing and you know I always caught my sister saying my but my brother transforms water into gasoline you know and if we withyn alien manage you know to really open up this very important field of. Sustainable fuels which I think is necessary for the energy transition and this would be a great achievement. What my contribution will be to that I don't know it's not for me. Good job.
| 57:19.49 | chrissass | Fair enough fair enough Yohan do you have any final thoughts as we wind up there.
| 57:24.94 | Johan | I have plenty of thoughts and and I thought it was really fascinating and and really good for you to to come up I know we're really pushing time but we can go on forever but I have maybe 1 last question if you can give us a short answer I love the passion from both of you guys. They are all the entrepreneurs I get a little bit jealous. Being the corporate guy on on here. But you know all all respect to you but 1 1 1 thing that kind of I'm a bit curious is around is one of your first partners you said was any which is a totally different beast in terms of ah. Corporate organizations etc. How how does that collaboration work where you have ah a young startup. You know that came onto the journey together where whereas in in in large corporations that it might be a project matter assignment to a project. They're slightly different approaches. How does this work.
| 58:21.77 | Gianluca | Yeah, it's again, a very important and fair and relevant point and it depends a lot on the partner. You know this is interesting and more than the partner it depends on who is leading the project and also on the aco the. Project gets within the within the within like the company. So of course start apps are totally different beasts and large companies and however it's um I mean it's ah it's not even necessary these beneficial to you know to. This kind of complementarities. Also what what did this important what when what is very you know like I mean this brings a lot of I mean gives a lot of strength on the part of bringing something to the market you know because large companies have first of all credibility experience. But also you know yeah I mean also like the knowledge breath and many things but but it is actually quite interesting that you see from different companies. Even. All large ones that you can be very different experience that you have with some that are very agile very fast, very responsive some. There are really like more like the state conglomerate. Ah some other are ah have like ah like a very down to earth attitude. The orders not. Of of our partners and but my previous experiences I mean I some somehow encounter sometimes others they have like a different kind of you know you know attitude that a bit more proud of themselves I'm happy to know our partner now. Ah now this is none of our actual partners.
| 01:00:04.97 | Johan | I Think we could all sign up on that are.
| 01:00:12.40 | Gianluca | But the previous ones said some that they were actually special and yeah, so this perhaps to summarize I think that you can work very well together. There are very many ways and how you can touch and complement each other and it's always facilitat how different it can play out in. But the case for different bad.
| 01:00:33.73 | chrissass | Well I think that's been a fantastic episode. You've taken us from taking sun air or co 2 water and and making energy. We've talked about growing a business. We've gone all over the place founders. It's been fantastic I want to thank you for being our guest I hope. You've enjoyed the conversation as much as we have because this is it's been a great charney. Thank you for being on the show today.
| 01:00:58.54 | Gianluca | Thank you very much. It's been a great pleasure.
| 01:00:58.69 | Johan | Um, thank you.
| 01:01:01.13 | chrissass | And for our audience you've enjoyed another episode of insider's guide energy if you've enjoyed this conversation if you're interested in synthetic fuels. Check our friends out on the internet watch the Youtube channel. It's pretty darn cool, watch their videos watch what they're doing because I thought that was pretty amazing. And think you will too share this with your friends and don't forget to like us and follow us and we'll talk to you again next week bye bye